Dishonest Agent

[fishpond 0]

We were stupid and thus was cheated by agent. This is our story,

We found a flat that we liked and did not have an agent to represent us. The seller's agent told us that he could represent us, pay him 1% commision. We agreed, signed an OTP, put down 5K deposit and signed a formed agreeing to let them represent us. We told him that we want the transaction to proceed ASAP as our rental lease is expiring in the next 5 months. He told us, the process should take about 4 months and we should have the flat by October probably. We agreed. Unfortunately, nothing in black and white.

During OTP, agent told us that the transaction of HDB is very slow and the 1st appointment will be late if submission is not immediate. We should let him apply for bank loan for us and submit the application asap. We faxed our financial details to him but proceeded to apply for our own bank loan. When our expedited bank loan was approved within 1 week, we called him to tell him we are ready for submission. He seemed reluctant to submit and came up with excuses which we found strange. We later found out that the seller needed to stay longer and thus did not want to submit till later.

We pressurized him and told him we will not pay the above valuation price if they delay the transaction and then he agreed to submit the application in June 28. Our 1st appointment was scheduled for 10 Sept.

I just found out from a friend who submitted in July 20th that her 1st appointment was Sept 6th.

I called up the agent as we felt he was not honest and wanted to fire him and rehire another agent but he said because we have agreed to hire him and signed an agreement with him, we are unable to fire him. Is this true???? What can we do? We are not unhappy about paying him but we are unhappy that he does not seem to represent us but the seller only. I know we were stupid to be trusting. Can anyone advise please.

Stupid

[zirhk3355 1]

The submission date should be determined at the signing of OTP. Do check it out.

Once the submission date is passed, the contract is considered null and void. You will have to sign another contract to carry on with the deal.

Its possible to discharge the agent if s/he had not performed the full duties. After all, s/he did not find the flat for you and the first appt had not been carried out. Write in to the company and HDB to request for the agent to be discharged. Keep the black & white reply in case the agent sue you next time.

[yoongf 11]

Take a look at your commission agreement. See if got the name of the company above.

If u have documentary proof of his negligence, or any written document that can be used as evidence that he is not acting in your best interests, Get a litigation lawyer to write to the boss of the company, threatening to hold that company responsible if this transection fails.

Potentially, any late completion penalty, or abortive costs, the company will be liable. When the damages can be substantial, usually the boss of the company will assist to make sure everything is ok.

Then again, if the company is a $2 paid up capital with a name not worth defending, then this method no use.

Lately, I do notice.. more and more agents have been performing below expectations. As such, I like to get written documentation of any promises made on company letterhead. And since I am paying the service fee, I also make sure no disclaimer clauses.

Frankly speaking, agents always threaten to sue. But in all likelyhood, they will not because that will severely damage their credibility in the industry.

[fishpond 0]

Thank you for your prompt replies.

The agent submitted before the agreed submission date which was July 16 so does that mean the OTP contract still holds?

We don't have a copy of the agreement signed to say that we would like to hire the agents but we know that they are from Propnex. Could you tell me what do we need to write in to HDB and Propnex. We were thinking of calling up the hdb hotline and asking them for evidence that the agent requested for a later 1st appointment date. ( He told us that the 1st appointment is not negotiable and that is only dependent on the submission date. Is that true?) Can we request for an earlier 2nd appointment date and how do we do this?

Please help.

[zirhk3355 1]

The agent submitted before the agreed submission date which was July 16 so does that mean the OTP contract still holds?

Yes.

We don't have a copy of the agreement signed to say that we would like to hire the agents but we know that they are from Propnex. Could you tell me what do we need to write in to HDB and Propnex. We were thinking of calling up the hdb hotline and asking them for evidence that the agent requested for a later 1st appointment date. ( He told us that the 1st appointment is not negotiable and that is only dependent on the submission date. Is that true?) Can we request for an earlier 2nd appointment date and how do we do this?

Please help.

The date of 1st appt can be selected by the agent if he submit online (thru HDB-ResaleNet), but no if he submit manually. He is from propnex, which is an accredited agency, so they sure got the system for the agents to use.

Thus, you can ask HDB when your agent had submitted the online resale application and whether he had accepted the system auto-assigned date of 1st appt, or did he manually select a later date. The agent actually have a choice of all the available dates, earliest possible usually about 2 to 4 weeks, depends on availability.

Appt dates are subjected to availability, thus for the date of the 2nd appt, you can actually decide on the spot with the HDB officer and seller during the 1st appt. Usually the 2nd appt can be, at earliest, be fixed between 6 to 8 weeks from the 1st appt. Check out the "Estimated Date of Completion for Resale of Flat".

[fishpond 0]

Thank you kind zirkh,

I think this forum may be more effective in preventing being cheated by unscrupulus agents than just being able to air your anger and dissatisfaction. Gathering information and not being ignorant is the best way. Thank you for replying. This allow us to negotiate better with the agent as well knowing where and how the procedures are done.

A couple more questions. What is the difference between Estimated date of completion and Effective date of resale? When can we get the key and when can we move in.

One more issue regarding Cash over valuation, how is it paid and how it is normally done? Please advise.

We are taking a bank loan and not HDB, how does not affect the process especially in speeding matter up?

Thank you again

[zirhk3355 1]

A couple more questions. What is the difference between Estimated date of completion and Effective date of resale? When can we get the key and when can we move in.

One more issue regarding Cash over valuation, how is it paid and how it is normally done? Please advise.

We are taking a bank loan and not HDB, how does not affect the process especially in speeding matter up?

Thank you again

Hehe, I am not too sure about "estimated date of completion" and "effective date of resale" - I guess the former refers to completion of all the paperwork while latter means the legally-effective date?

COV amount is to be brought and handed over to the seller in front of the HDB officer during the 2nd appt.

There is nothing much you can do to speed up the process; bank loan normally takes longer than HDB loan. Maybe just make sure the bank has given you the proper documentation so as not to screw up your 2nd appt lor. Usually the bank's lawyers would have liaised with HDB prior to your 2nd appt.

[yenfong 0]

Thank you for your prompt replies.

The agent submitted before the agreed submission date which was July 16 so does that mean the OTP contract still holds?

We don't have a copy of the agreement signed to say that we would like to hire the agents but we know that they are from Propnex. Could you tell me what do we need to write in to HDB and Propnex. We were thinking of calling up the hdb hotline and asking them for evidence that the agent requested for a later 1st appointment date. ( He told us that the 1st appointment is not negotiable and that is only dependent on the submission date. Is that true?) Can we request for an earlier 2nd appointment date and how do we do this?

Please help.

You can complain to Propnex, but Propnex may protect the agent, we don't know.

so you should Complain to CASE also:

http://www.case.org.sg/contactus.htm

Address

Main office

170 Ghim Moh Road #05-01

Ulu Pandan Community Building

Singapore 279621

(Nearest MRT Station: Buona Vista)

(Bus numbers: 92, 100, 111, 198)

*Branch office (by appointment only)

75 Jellicoe Road

#03-03 Wavelink Building

Singapore 208738

*for appointment - call our hotline

(Nearest MRT Station: Lavender)

For consumer advice and mediation

Walk-ins at Ghim Moh office from Mon-Sat: 9am-4pm

Hotline: 6463 1811

Fax: 6467 9055

Email: complaints@case.org.sg

[Mousehunt 0]

Propnex will definitely protect the agent. This has happened to me. Seems like there are several complains about Propnex agents. I will never use their agents again!!!!!!!!!!!

[MeToo 0]

Hehe, I am not too sure about "estimated date of completion" and "effective date of resale" - I guess the former refers to completion of all the paperwork while latter means the legally-effective date?

This is right. "Estimated Date of completion" means the date by which HDB completes the documentation and transaction procedures. When you go for the first appointment, HDB will give a letter. There will be 2 dates. One is "Estimated Date of completion". For example, in my case it is app. 20 days from 1st appointment. Another is "Effective date of resale". It is the date of second appointment, when you get the key and become the legal owner of the flat.

The second appointment date has to be mutually agreed between the seller and buyer. In my case it is 2 months and one week, which is more than normal time. Why becos, my seller don't want to vacate and go to her new house in Ghost month, which is a personal sentiment and I respected that. Just FYI, I have a friend who completed the second appointment and got keys in just one month from 1st appt. Also I have another friend, whose seller dragged the second appt date for more than 4 months. If it is more than normal time, HDB will ask a mutually consented letter signed by seller and buyer. I have given that since it's app. 9 weeks.

In my opinion, if your seller agrees to vacate quickly, you can get your keys in 1 month after 1st appt. It seems your 1st appt date is manipulated by the agent. It doesn't take too long. Actually you can verify the earliest 1st appt date available from here

http://services2.hdb.gov.sg/webapp/BB24APPT/WelcomeDate.jsp

Just to check, I selected the SAEA scheme and the earliest date is 21 sep 07, which is 7 weeks from now. In your case it is abt 10 weeks. Clearly your agent is playing hide and seek with you.

One more issue regarding Cash over valuation, how is it paid and how it is normally done? Please advise.

When you go for 1st appt, you most likely go to attorney's office on same day. I think you might have got a letter from attorney' office by now, since your 1st appt date is fixed. When you go there, they will give you a financial plan for payment. It goes something like this

===============

Total resale price - xxx

(minus)

Advance paid already - xxx

Bank loan - xxx

CPF cash portion - xxx

(plus)

Lawyer fee (minus bank subsidy) - xxx

Stamp fee and registration fee - xxx

(equal to)

Cash you need to payup.

===============

The stamp fee + registration etc fee + lawyer fee, you need to pay in 2 weeks app from 1st appt.

Remaining money, you need to pay app 2 weeks before second appt. All the money you need to pay in cash or cheque to the attorney office, NOT TO UR SELLER.

And last, I could not resist to say this. Buying a house is a one time big investment. You should have done enough home work before that.

Hope this helps.

[fishpond 0]

Dear MeToo,

I agree with you entirely and there are no excuses. We should have found out more but we were stupid and thought the flat would be sold if we don't grab. It has happened to us for 3 private properties in the past. This is the first HDB that we actually liked and initially thought the price was cheap. Mainly because we have been looking at private properties. We agreed to a very high price over valuation which we have since found out since the government released their latest datas. The average above valuation in the area was only 10 K but we paid 30K. The strange thing is all the rest of the hdb apartments that we looked at which we did not even liked asked for much higher cash over valuation. I wonder if the goverment datas did not capture the undeclared COV.

I called up HDB and the officer managing our case told me that the date given to us was the earliest. My gut feeling tells me that the agent manipulated the date because the seller's 1st appointment is the very next day. I went to the HDB website and the also got 20th Sept. I thought that if I could persuade the HDB officer to give me documented proof, then I will proceed to the lawyer and get the agent fired. However, as I can't produce documented proof of the fact the agent manupulated the date, I will not be able to fire him. I don't just want to complain to propnex or HDB.

I am also grateful to for your detailed explanation because I have gotten 3 versions regarding this estimated and completed date stuff. I asked the HDB officer and she told me that I get the key and is officially the owner after the estimated completion of sale. I start to pay conservency and CPF money gets deducted after or at effective date of resale. The HDB website said that our estimated completion of sale should be second half of Oct and the effective date of resale (EDR) 1st November.

I called the agent to enquire about this mainly to find out when can we get the key and start renovation work and he told us that it will be 3 days after the second appointment. (Where did the 3 days come from ???) and then he said that we do not need to be there for the second appointment and that the lawyers can take care of things. What do you think? Difficult to trust him ....

I will find out more about this whole process by calling HDB. Any further advice is much appreciated.

Thanks everybody. Will keep you posted.

[raincole 0]

Dear MeToo,

I agree with you entirely and there are no excuses. We should have found out more but we were stupid and thought the flat would be sold if we don't grab. It has happened to us for 3 private properties in the past. This is the first HDB that we actually liked and initially thought the price was cheap. Mainly because we have been looking at private properties. We agreed to a very high price over valuation which we have since found out since the government released their latest datas. The average above valuation in the area was only 10 K but we paid 30K. The strange thing is all the rest of the hdb apartments that we looked at which we did not even liked asked for much higher cash over valuation. I wonder if the goverment datas did not capture the undeclared COV.

I called up HDB and the officer managing our case told me that the date given to us was the earliest. My gut feeling tells me that the agent manipulated the date because the seller's 1st appointment is the very next day. I went to the HDB website and the also got 20th Sept. I thought that if I could persuade the HDB officer to give me documented proof, then I will proceed to the lawyer and get the agent fired. However, as I can't produce documented proof of the fact the agent manupulated the date, I will not be able to fire him. I don't just want to complain to propnex or HDB.

I am also grateful to for your detailed explanation because I have gotten 3 versions regarding this estimated and completed date stuff. I asked the HDB officer and she told me that I get the key and is officially the owner after the estimated completion of sale. I start to pay conservency and CPF money gets deducted after or at effective date of resale. The HDB website said that our estimated completion of sale should be second half of Oct and the effective date of resale (EDR) 1st November.

I called the agent to enquire about this mainly to find out when can we get the key and start renovation work and he told us that it will be 3 days after the second appointment. (Where did the 3 days come from ???) and then he said that we do not need to be there for the second appointment and that the lawyers can take care of things. What do you think? Difficult to trust him ....

I will find out more about this whole process by calling HDB. Any further advice is much appreciated.

Thanks everybody. Will keep you posted.

1. U don't have to be there if ur lawyers are representing u. But to speed things up, u can be there to receive the set of keys (direct, not thr' 3rd party).

2. The 3 days is for the reno permit approval. So u have to ask ur id to prepare it first and submit immdiately when u r officially the owners.

[mrsagibit 0]

Hi Fishpond,

After your second appointment, you are officially the flat owner. The keys must be handed over to you on the second appointment to complete the transaction. Since you are taking bank loan, you should have also engaged a private lawyer to handle the legal procedures.

For the 2nd appointment, you do not need to be physically present as the law firm will represent you to complete the legal procedures for taking possession of flat. You can take the keys from the law firm at your convenience. However, if you want to be present during the 2nd appointment, no one can stop you from doing so.

You should get the keys immediately right after the 2nd appointment and not 3 days after. Your agent is not trust worthy. Why is there a 3 day period? You are the legal owner after the 2nd appointment and if any illegal activities takes place during that 3 days, you are liable to answer for it.

I did not attend my 2nd appointment as I was overseas on that day. I collected the keys from the law firm the following week when I am returned back. The law firm should safe keep the keys for you if you are not able to attend the 2nd appointment and not pass it to the agent. The agent has no legal rights to safe keep your keys. Is your lawyer recommended by the agent? Regardless, you should inform your lawyers to hold the keys for you in your absence (if you did not attend the 2nd appointment) and not pass it to the agent. It may be a good idea to change your locks (main gates) immediately after the second appointment as the agent may have a duplicate set from the sellers. Alternatively, add a extra padlock to your main gate to prevent unauthorized access to your flat.

Take note that you may need to pay any remaining balance of the property tax and conservancy charges to the seller (if applicable). On your first appointment, the HDB officer will inform you about the charges.

The hdb data is a rough guide and may not accurately portray the market. The COV depends on other factors such as location, proximity to amenities, MRT etc However, now people are always trying their luck and asking for ridiculous sky high prices. If your flat is at popular and good location, 30K COV is common.

I did my own flat hunting and met a number of agents. I know how unscrupulous and unethical some agents can be. I was also almost conned by an agent once. Luckily the deal fell through and I managed to find my ideal flat at a better location with much less COV and bigger floor area in the same town. luckily I met a nice agent and sellers this time and my overall resale experience was pleasant. I hope the industry gets regulated and weed out all the bad agents/practices.

[MeToo 0]

Hi fishpond,

Sorry if some of my comments hurt you. I didn't mean it.

I understand that you don't want to pursue a confrontational approach to agent. That will give us a lot of stress.

I called the agent to enquire about this mainly to find out when can we get the key and start renovation work and he told us that it will be 3 days after the second appointment. (Where did the 3 days come from ???) and then he said that we do not need to be there for the second appointment and that the lawyers can take care of things. What do you think? Difficult to trust him ....

Be cautious. Second appt date is the final date for this entire transaction of purchase - OFFICIALLY. Means once you complete the second appt, YOU WILL BE THE LEGAL OWNER OF THE HOUSE. This 3 days time is completly unacceptable. In these 3 days, if the seller do anything in your flat, a damage/demolition/illegal activities, then you are answerable as the legal owner of the flat. Make sure on the same day of second appt, you got your keys and put your own lock to the flat. If the seller says that they desparately need this 3 days, then you make your second appt date after that 3 days. Hope you got what I mean. You can find out from HDB also what their answer for this situation.

Also, Pl. remember you are supposed to visit your flat one day before the second appt date to make sure everything in your flat is ok - No illegal alterations, No damage to main structure, etc.

[fishpond 0]

Dear all,

Thanks again for the advices. Will take note and proceed cautiously.

Dear MeToo,

I was not hurt. You were right. We should be better informed and these kind of problems may be less. Difficult balance to be trusting and being kiasu/difficult.

Will keep you posted.