Urgent Urgent: The Living Age!

[sunshine07 0]

Hi All,

I've recently got ID firm "The Living Age" to quote for renovation of my 4rm HDB resale flat. The quote they've returned with amounts over $60K.

Would greatly appreciate any comments / feedback on your experiences working with this firm.

Cheers!

[c_stradale 0]

using gold to lay floor? a bit..or rather too much on the high side right ?

[applefreak 1]

maybe you want to list down the items done with $60k

then it'll be easier for us to help see if you are being over charged

[sunshine07 0]

maybe you want to list down the items done with $60k

then it'll be easier for us to help see if you are being over charged

Hi Strad, Apple,

Many thanks for replying!! Yes the quote is way in excess of our budget.

Our unit is a 4rm (92sqm) flat, with the exception of the tiles no other major renovation work has been done on this flat since it's built in '78.

My id is working out costs based on a design from an Architect friend. The major design feature is the creation of a study/ dining / dry kitchen space where the mbr used to be. This new space will consists of a mix of a feature 10mm glass panels, 8ft of feature pillars, amongst others. Also we're creating a walk in wd where the old store rm used to be.

Would like to post the entire quote here but it's a hard copy with a very detailed breakdown of Hacking/ Electricals/ Plumbing/ Masonry/ Carpentry/ Glass works etc... The quote was based on ID's proposal to use premium material & scale down from there

In Summary, Significant Costs Include:

1) Hack and remove walls at store room/ living & mbr / kitchen and mbr <$1800>

1a) Removal of existing floor tiles <$900>

2) Laying of H Tiles in living, dining, kitchen, bedrooms, 2 bathroom <$8930>

3) Carpentry work (23ft of dry, wet kitchen cabinet in veneer) <$5750>

3a) Carpentry work: Install TV Console, feature wall <$2200>

3b) 13ft of feature pillars in veneer <$3250>

3c) Install customized study table <$1960>

3d) Install customize 12ft wardrobe in polykem to walk in area <$2520>

4) Whole house rewiring (not inclu. of electical pt.s/ installation) <$1900>

5) Granite table top, kitchen (16ft) <$2400>

6) False Ceiling for mbr, living, dining area. <$2680>

7) Painting of house in ICI <$1400>

8) Install 5 no.s door frame to whole house <$750>

9) Install 3 no.s customize doors in veneer <$1350>

10) Install 2 no.s bi-fold doors to bathrooms <$1300>

11) Install 10mm tempered glass panel to study area <$2280>

12) Install 10mm glass panel to kitchen area <$1200>

Really appreciate any comments you have on the above and also tips and reccomendations would be INVALUABLE!!

If you can acutally spare the time to look at the quote in detail I could email it you?

Either way many thanks in advance!

[applefreak 1]

wow the carpentry is really

it's way over priced

and painting my EA 134sqm is only $1350 using medifresh 3-in-1 (not vinilex)

actually if you already have design can just get a contractor

not worth to get an ID firm

[sunshine07 0]

wow the carpentry is really

it's way over priced

and painting my EA 134sqm is only $1350 using medifresh 3-in-1 (not vinilex)

actually if you already have design can just get a contractor

not worth to get an ID firm

Overpriced??? ya it all look too inflated... must be some strategy.

The ID done by my friend is not extensive just rough guidline, and this ID firm was a reccomendation from another friend. you heard of them? This designer has had several features in H&D mags.

Some questions:

What are the pros and cons of subcon-ing this reno?

What do you think are the major items to cut costs?

THanks again!!

[zirhk3355 1]

1) Hack and remove walls at store room/ living & mbr / kitchen and mbr <$1800>

Hacking only involves using a big hammer and just knocking the walls down. This does not even include rewiring of those in-wall cables. Do also check if this includes touching up the rough edges after hacking, but even if so, does not need to be $1800 lor. For a guide, I hacked my wall at $180 and touch up at $180.

2) Laying of H Tiles in living, dining, kitchen, bedrooms, 2 bathroom <$8930>

What kind of homogenous tiles??

Usually those made in china tiles are between the prices of $2.50 to $5.00 psf ($5.00 is considered good one liao), while labour is another $2.50 to $4.00 psf. Sand/Cement is under haulage. You go calculate your square area and do the math - this is far too high.

3) Carpentry work (23ft of dry, wet kitchen cabinet in veneer) <$5750>

$5750 divided by 23ft comes up to $250 psf!! Way way too high, even though its in veneer. Usually only about $100 to $130 psf, and remember this does not include your granite surface, which is below...

4) Whole house rewiring (not inclu. of electical pt.s/ installation) <$1900>

If does not include electrical points, then what does this price tage of $1900 includes?? Electrical works mostly consists of electrical points lor, which is about $25 to $35 per point.

5) Granite table top, kitchen (16ft) <$2400>

$2400 divided by 16ft is $150 psf, also on the high side. Granite surface is usually about $100 to $120 only.

10) Install 2 no.s bi-fold doors to bathrooms <$1300>

You can get bi-fold doors with tempered glass and coloured patterns at Besglass at $580 each. If this is a normal plastic bi-fold door with acrylic (or whole thing plastic), this is expensive.

11) Install 10mm tempered glass panel to study area <$2280>

12) Install 10mm glass panel to kitchen area <$1200>

How long is this glass panel at your study area and kitchen area? Any doors, swinging or sliding? Is the glass panels from floor to ceiling? For your reference, I am doing a full-height panel of glass (also 10mm thick) with a sliding door for my study area, total 10ft in length, $1900.

Disclaimer: This is based on my personal experiences with the limited information as given above. I did not talk to your ID and do not know what the full quotation entails, so I may be wrong. Don't go confront your ID with what I said hor, otherwise he comes after me!! You have to use your own judgement to see if what I said is true for your case... Good Luck!!

Edited May 6, 2007 by zirhk3355

[zirhk3355 1]

The quote was based on ID's proposal to use premium material & scale down from there

Frankly I don't see any premium materials in your quotation leh.

Real premium we are talking about things like crystal marble (for kitchen top), acrylic/sprayed-glass panels complete with aluminium trimmings (kitchen cabinets), timber/veneer double framing (for walk-in wardrobes), Italy tiles, marble (for the floor) and such.

Other things that could be expensive are those branded mechanisms for your kitchen, wardrobes and glass panels/doors. Are they using any kitchen specialist's mechanism like Blum, Hacker, Rationale? Or wardrobe specialists like Alumix, Fimes or Hoffen? Or glass specialists like Aust Screen and Besglass? There seemed to be none of such in your quotation, unless you did not type them out here.

If you can acutally spare the time to look at the quote in detail I could email it you?

Actually you can scan the quotation and post it here for all to see - use those free uploading websites like yousendit.com will do...

Edited May 6, 2007 by zirhk3355

[sunshine07 0]

Khriz, thanks heaps for taking the time to reply!

Are your prices based on engaging a contractor or an ID firm? From your extensive experience who would you reccommend I use or get another quote from? PS: Cool blog!

1) Hack and remove walls at store room/ living & mbr / kitchen and mbr <$1800>

Hacking only involves using a big hammer and just knocking the walls down. This does not even include rewiring of those in-wall cables. Do also check if this includes touching up the rough edges after hacking, but even if so, does not need to be $1800 lor. For a guide, I hacked my wall at $180 and touch up at $180.

Wow $180 a wall? How large a wall would this be? I'm missed including hacking and removal of the whole house floor tiles that's lumped under the $1800, ie. <$900> But on average I'm being charged at $250 for a wall length of about 4-5ft.

2) Laying of H Tiles in living, dining, kitchen, bedrooms, 2 bathroom <$8930>

What kind of homogenous tiles??

Usually those made in china tiles are between the prices of $2.50 to $5.00 psf ($5.00 is considered good one liao), while labour is another $2.50 to $4.00 psf. Sand/Cement is under haulage. You go calculate your square area and do the math - this is far too high.

These would be 600 x 600 h tiles. For price/ quality, nothing specific I think ID mentioned mid range, inclusive of wall tiles for bathroom... this is still ex ya?

3) Carpentry work (23ft of dry, wet kitchen cabinet in veneer) <$5750>

$5750 divided by 23ft comes up to $250 psf!! Way way too high, even though its in veneer. Usually only about $100 to $130 psf, and remember this does not include your granite surface, which is below...

[color=#3333FF] ouch!

4) Whole house rewiring (not inclu. of electical pt.s/ installation) <$1900>

If does not include electrical points, then what does this price tage of $1900 includes?? Electrical works mostly consists of electrical points lor, which is about $25 to $35 per point.

Not sure it just a generic item: I'm being charged separately for 20 lighting points, whole house electrical installation. Additional: $1150.

5) Granite table top, kitchen (16ft) <$2400>

$2400 divided by 16ft is $150 psf, also on the high side. Granite surface is usually about $100 to $120 only.

10) Install 2 no.s bi-fold doors to bathrooms <$1300>

You can get bi-fold doors with tempered glass and coloured patterns at Besglass at $580 each. If this is a normal plastic bi-fold door with acrylic (or whole thing plastic), this is expensive.

11) Install 10mm tempered glass panel to study area <$2280>

12) Install 10mm glass panel to kitchen area <$1200>

How long is this glass panel at your study area and kitchen area? Any doors, swinging or sliding? Is the glass panels from floor to ceiling? For your reference, I am doing a full-height panel of glass (also 10mm thick) with a sliding door for my study area, total 10ft in length, $1900.

Study is boxed in 3 sides by glass, 1.2m (x2) & 2.9m (x1). Kitchen Panel including door space is about 2.8m. All are floor to ceiling.

[sunshine07 0]

There seemed to be none of such in your quotation, unless you did not type them out here.

Actually you can scan the quotation and post it here for all to see - use those free uploading websites like yousendit.com will do...

Hey Khriz, wonderful suggestion I'm trying to do it now, but could you advise what I should input when I'm prompted for the recipient's email?

Cheers!

[zirhk3355 1]

Are your prices based on engaging a contractor or an ID firm? From your extensive experience who would you reccommend I use or get another quote from? PS: Cool blog!

Wait, I dun qualify to be considered having 'extensive' experience lahh - just another layman who managed to learn some unit rates during my search with a few IDs and contractors. You will be able to know this as well when you had visited a few more IDs; encourage you to walk-in some IDs and ask instead of just relying on those your friends recommended.

And thanks for visiting the blog! Still very short, duno what to write and also got difficulties in uploading photos...

Wow $180 a wall? How large a wall would this be? I'm missed including hacking and removal of the whole house floor tiles that's lumped under the $1800, ie. <$900> But on average I'm being charged at $250 for a wall length of about 4-5ft.

Oh you mean the $1800 includes that $900 for removal of floor tiles also? So its $900 for the walls at "store room/ living & mbr / kitchen and mbr", or $250 like you said for a length of 4-5ft? Well then its quite ok lor.

These would be 600 x 600 h tiles. For price/ quality, nothing specific I think ID mentioned mid range, inclusive of wall tiles for bathroom... this is still ex ya?

600 x 600 is normal size, where there is no price difference. Only if you want like 800 x 800 or 1200 x 1200, then there is some price difference. Do ask what kind of tiles you can choose; usually the IDs will bring you to the tile supplier and tell you that under the package, you can choose tiles from a certain range of the display prices. Market practice is between $2.50 to $3.50 psf type of tiles.

And you mean the $8930 also includes the wall tiles?? Usually they don't quote this way leh - you better ask to be sure. If its really all lumped together, please tell him to break it up into floor tiles and wall tiles, and what is the price psf. Ask if you have the option to go buy your own tiles, and if so, how much would he take out from the $8930.

And lastly, yes, unless they give you designers' wall tiles (with glass coating, expensive printing with silver patterns) at $28psf type, it cannot be so ex lor.

Do note that sometimes the IDs/contractors will mark up items that are compulsory, like hacking of walls, flooring, etc but mark down on optional items, like built-in wardrobes, so that when you take out the optional items they will still keep their margin.

Not sure it just a generic item: I'm being charged separately for 20 lighting points, whole house electrical installation. Additional: $1150.

Sorry I don't understand this; so exactly how much is the electrical works and does it include the points or not?

Study is boxed in 3 sides by glass, 1.2m (x2) & 2.9m (x1). Kitchen Panel including door space is about 2.8m. All are floor to ceiling.

Does it include glass doors, sliding or swinging type? Sliding door is more expensive than swinging one, because of the track mechanism.

Hey Khriz, wonderful suggestion I'm trying to do it now, but could you advise what I should input when I'm prompted for the recipient's email?

Erm, you can just put your own email mah...?

[applefreak 1]

4rm (92sqm) flat

Hack and remove walls at store room/ living & mbr / kitchen and mbr <$1800>

1a) Removal of existing floor tiles <$900>

>you sure the $1.8k includes removal of flr tiles? the way it's written seems like two different items under the same category nia

2) Laying of H Tiles in living, dining, kitchen, bedrooms, 2 bathroom <$8930>

>like what they have said, it's too expensive. take $6 ave to supply and lay psf, you're talking about almost 1,500sqf of space... esp since you can only choose 600 x 600

3) Carpentry work (23ft of dry, wet kitchen cabinet in veneer) <$5750>

>what is the diff between dry and wet? can you choose all bottom to be concrete support? what are the extras e.g. blumotion or hettich drawer systems and hinges, frost glass doors, backsplash, cutlery trays etc

3a) Carpentry work: Install TV Console, feature wall <$2200>

3b) 13ft of feature pillars in veneer <$3250>

3c) Install customized study table <$1960>

3d) Install customize 12ft wardrobe in polykem to walk in area <$2520>

>does this comes with doors? without door price is only $130pfr, for carpentry work it's best to get them quote in pfr then it's easier to compare

5) Granite table top, kitchen (16ft) <$2400>

>expensive, esp when my contractor quote blue pearl at $100psf...

6) False Ceiling for mbr, living, dining area. <$2680>

>total psf? seems on the high side still, given yours is a 4-rm

7) Painting of house in ICI <$1400>

>VERY VERY expensive, esp if only using vinilex or equivalent

8) Install 5 no.s door frame to whole house <$750>

9) Install 3 no.s customize doors in veneer <$1350>

>so there's two door frames without doors? Sentat selling veneer doors with frames including installation and locks at $268/door, go figure

10) Install 2 no.s bi-fold doors to bathrooms <$1300>

>think market rate is around $200-$300 per door

this ID firm really take you as a radish leh

unless you say after renovation you can on air-con while on the way back, clap and dinner will be served then different

[sunshine07 0]

>you sure the $1.8k includes removal of flr tiles? the way it's written seems like two different items under the same category nia

Ya, just lumped it all together.

>like what they have said, it's too expensive. take $6 ave to supply and lay psf, you're talking about almost 1,500sqf of space... esp since you can only choose 600 x 600

So at an avg of $5-$6 per 600x 600 H Tile, this should be the benchmark ya?

>what is the diff between dry and wet? can you choose all bottom to be concrete support? what are the extras e.g. blumotion or hettich drawer systems and hinges, frost glass doors, backsplash, cutlery trays etc

Woah! I haven't gone into those specs yet, no idea about the base or interior but will ask for sure.

>does this comes with doors? without door price is only $130pfr, for carpentry work it's best to get them quote in pfr then it's easier to compare

urr... pfr as in Per Ft right?

7) Painting of house in ICI <$1400>

>VERY VERY expensive, esp if only using vinilex or equivalent

>so there's two door frames without doors? Sentat selling veneer doors with frames including installation and locks at $268/door, go figure

ha... ya open concept... my typo

this ID firm really take you as a radish leh

unless you say after renovation you can on air-con while on the way back, clap and dinner will be served then different

You're some comedian doubling up as a kind soul right?

Apple, Khriz, others...

Just a huge thanks to you folks for the perspective here, going to speak to a few conractors and IDs to straighten out the quote. Will certainly update you on the progress of my own litl love nest.

Any good referrals on a parting note? This would be really helpful.

Cheers and thanks!

[zirhk3355 1]

So at an avg of $5-$6 per 600x 600 H Tile, this should be the benchmark ya?

No, they do not calculate this way. $5 to $6 psf, but the tile size is 600x600, which has nothing to do with the price. One tile at 600x600 is more than a square foot liao...

Any good referrals on a parting note? This would be really helpful.

Good referrals as in IDs? Well u can try the one I selected, which is United Team Lifestyle at Thomson Plaza; the one in-charge of my flat is Lawrence.

Disclaimer: I just confirmed him, have not done anything yet. So if it turns out to be a disaster, I am in the same plight as you!

[applefreak 1]

So at an avg of $5-$6 per 600x 600 H Tile, this should be the benchmark ya?

> my home is 134sqm, total tiling area for all bedrooms, study, living and dining is 1250sqf. yours is 92sqm, plus toilet, kitchen, walls can't be more than mine right? so that means you are paying an average of more than $7 for supply and lay. unless your ID let you choose those $5psf tile (psf, not per pc)

urr... pfr as in Per Ft right?

>yeah in a way, it's per foot in width, height is not taken into consideration

ha... ya open concept... my typo

so it's total $1.5k for three doors???

You're some comedian doubling up as a kind soul right?

>no, i'm a devil trying to be a comedian

Apple, Khriz, others...

Any good referrals on a parting note? This would be really helpful.

Cheers and thanks!

>> me going for contractor coz already have a fixed idea how i want my place to be. if your friend can design in detail for you, you may want to consider Patrick of Ho Bee, he'll build your design for you

Edited May 8, 2007 by applefreak