The Experience: Our First Home

[summersann 6]

Aircon we were insistent to use our aircon specialist so that we get proper technicians (and servicing) and not those iffy ones like Gain City. I got irritated talking to salesmen who didn't even know what BTU is required based on the room size. We used Aircon Designs.

Some IDs will bring you to their 'preferred' stores, but it's cos they get commissions. So you may want to utilise ur own contacts. For us our IDs passed on the discounts for lights (LightCraft) and toilet fixtures (Toto/W Atelier) to us. They did bring us shopping for the fittings, but for lights in in the end we let them decide cos we trusted them (actually realised that they are pickier than us and we didn't enjoy lights shopping, haha).

Thanks for the aircon contact (Aircon Designs Pte Ltd, right?). Have them bookmarked. Shall contact them when it's time to fret over aircon!

Furniture wise not all IDs will provide the hand-holding service. In fact I think very few. So if you want that, then you have to find IDs who do so. Anyway furniture wise my IDs and I don't always share the same taste, but I like mine better.

I agree with you though, hahaha. Not that I know if my IDs' tastes are the same as mine yet, but we already bought 2 pieces on our own without their guidance

We noted down a list of items anyway for budgeting. For some items that require measurements or have space constraints, we asked for maximum measurements - e.g. even fridge also need to know how much space for it in the kitchen right? So we shopped based on those measurements, and once we finalised our purchases, we gave the final measurements to our IDs to incorporate into the carpentry design/measurement.

Good point! Note to self: remember to get measurements!

Thanks adidaem!

[summersann 6]

If you're too casual with your ID, he may run things according to his own convenience, and his schedule, not yours. It's a balancing act. You can't ride your ID too hard and be unreasonable, but you can't be too hands off either. Remember, you're the boss. You need to know what's going on! It's good to always have your renos mapped out so you can plan ahead.

You're right! We need to keep reminding ourselves that as much as we like the IDs we're speaking to, we are, at the end of the day, paying customers. We need to know what we're paying for.

[summersann 6]

i totally agree. in retrospect, we should have asked for the Date of Completion in black and white, so that we have a stronger case. of course, if they have any decency whatsoever, they should know that 15 weeks reno is crazy - don't need paper to prove

the infuriating thing is we asked for a project schedule multiple times, and each time, the Proj Mgr would say "ok ok, will send it soon" but we never received one. after the 4th/5th week of reno, we got so busy with the millions of decisions and gave up asking.

i think the problem with my ID is that they are overworked. when we demanded that they stick to the handover date last week, they said they just REALLY couldn't find enough workers because there were too many projects on hand. is this valid?? sorry but i don't give a f*** about your lack of workers - you took up this amount of projects, you have to manage them properly and deliver on time.

that's one thing i learnt as a noob - popular ID companies may have better experience due to their larger portfolios. but it also means they may not have much attention for you. my friend who went with a lesser known ID had her reno (same amt of work, same sqf) done in 8 weeks and her ID himself went down every single day.

anyway, this being our 1st exp, we'll take it as lessons learnt and have a smoother exp the next time! *cross fingers*

Thanks for sharing your experience! It's going to help ground us when we next speak to the ID from the firm. Were you informed that the ID you were speaking to would not be the supervisor on-site? We specifically asked the ID we are speaking to and she told us that she will be the one checking the site. Did your ID tell you that in the beginning before you confirmed them and then suddenly pull a fast-one on you after you signed?

Is your ID apologetic, at least? They should feel sorry that your project dragged on for so long right? Not that him being apologetic helps anything, but at least if he knows he's in the wrong...

By the way, did you agree to the payment schedule that they stated in their contract (20% upon confirmation, 30% upon commencement of works, 45% upon commencement of wet works or measuring of carpentry, 5% final payment upon completion)? We're thinking of negotiating the payment schedule, but not sure if it's something that's acceptable in this industry.

Sorry for the deluge of questions! Thanks in advance for your kind sharing!

[ultimax 2]

Thanks for sharing your experience! It's going to help ground us when we next speak to the ID from the firm. Were you informed that the ID you were speaking to would not be the supervisor on-site? We specifically asked the ID we are speaking to and she told us that she will be the one checking the site. Did your ID tell you that in the beginning before you confirmed them and then suddenly pull a fast-one on you after you signed?

Is your ID apologetic, at least? They should feel sorry that your project dragged on for so long right? Not that him being apologetic helps anything, but at least if he knows he's in the wrong...

By the way, did you agree to the payment schedule that they stated in their contract (20% upon confirmation, 30% upon commencement of works, 45% upon commencement of wet works or measuring of carpentry, 5% final payment upon completion)? We're thinking of negotiating the payment schedule, but not sure if it's something that's acceptable in this industry.

Sorry for the deluge of questions! Thanks in advance for your kind sharing!

Here's my 2 cents. Sorry for butting in

"Checking" is ambiguous. It's best to ask what level of supervision can you expect from the ID? A daily visit? Weekly visit? Or visit only after the completition of each stage?

I find complications can arise if you like your IDs, but they're a small firm. Let me explain.

A small ID firm may mean well, and have good people not out to cheat you, but they can't give you their undivided attention because they have multiple projects. They may over commit themselves because they underestimate the amount of time needed for each job (perhaps due to inexperience or unanticipated delays). If they're new in the industry, they desperately need to build up their portfolio. It's the only way they can get new customers. So they find it hard to turn down a job even if their plate is quite full. I think most IDs will know where their breaking point is, but if you're the client approaching them just before that, chances are they'll take on your job and only realise it wasn't such a good idea later on. Before that lesson is learnt, they usually think they can just work a little harder. The problem is even if they're willing to work 24hrs a day, it's just impossible to be at 2 places at once. They can supervise your project to the level you'd like, and expect, as a client.

Being small, they may also have cash flow problems. Because the level of trust is so low in the industry, materials have to be purchased upfront. They're also afraid of clients running away with their designs. The horror stories Iv'e heard from both IDs and clients are truly amazing. I can see why the level of trust is so low.

That's why IDs often insist on a large part of the cost almost upfront. They want to protect their own itnerests, and need it so they can get work done. They may have very little credit, or resources, on their own. Depending on your IDs, there may be some wiggle room for negotiations. But the payment schedule you've shared looks pretty typical. It can sometimes be worse, with up to 70% almost upfront.

The big complication is the relationship. Ironically, more problems could be caused if it's good (you like them, they like you). What should you do if there are delays/complications?

Where should you draw the line between being a compassionate human, and being 100% business? When should you put your foot down? What should you do if they ask for more time, for example? You don't want to be a jerk because you're a nice person. You also realise they can sabo your renos if they feel you're being difficult.

That is why ground rules are so important. If there are complications, you're in a better position to negotiate because both parties went in knowing full well what was expected of each other. (that said, you must also be a good client, and not be unreasonable)

Edited October 15, 2012 by ultimax

[summersann 6]

Here's my 2 cents. Sorry for butting in

"Checking" is ambiguous. It's best to ask what level of supervision can you expect from the ID? A daily visit? Weekly visit? Or visit only after the completition of each stage?

I find complications can arise if you like your IDs, but they're a small firm. Let me explain.

A small ID firm may mean well, and have good people not out to cheat you, but they can't give you their undivided attention because they have multiple projects. They may over commit themselves because they underestimate the amount of time needed for each job (perhaps due to inexperience or unanticipated delays). If they're new in the industry, they desperately need to build up their portfolio. It's the only way they can get new customers. So they find it hard to turn down a job even if their plate is quite full. I think most IDs will know where their breaking point is, but if you're the client approaching them just before that, chances are they'll take on your job and only realise it wasn't such a good idea later on. Before that lesson is learnt, they usually think they can just work a little harder. The problem is even if they're willing to work 24hrs a day, it's just impossible to be at 2 places at once. They can supervise your project to the level you'd like, and expect, as a client.

Being small, they may also have cash flow problems. Because the level of trust is so low in the industry, materials have to be purchased upfront. They're also afraid of clients running away with their designs. The horror stories Iv'e heard from both IDs and clients are truly amazing. I can see why the level of trust is so low.

That's why IDs often insist on a large part of the cost almost upfront. They want to protect their own itnerests, and need it so they can get work done. They may have very little credit, or resources, on their own. Depending on your IDs, there may be some wiggle room for negotiations. But the payment schedule you've shared looks pretty typical. It can sometimes be worse, with up to 70% almost upfront.

The big complication is the relationship. Ironically, more problems could be caused if it's good (you like them, they like you). What should you do if there are delays/complications?

Where should you draw the line between being a compassionate human, and being 100% business? When should you put your foot down? What should you do if they ask for more time, for example? You don't want to be a jerk because you're a nice person. You also realise they can sabo your renos if they feel you're being difficult.

That is why ground rules are so important. If there are complications, you're in a better position to negotiate because both parties went in knowing full well what was expected of each other. (that said, you must also be a good client, and not be unreasonable)

Well said! I was thinking of also including a clause where the ID will have to compensate $XX per day for delays (of course, this means we should agree on a reasonable date of completion). Ultimax, do you think I should state these in the same contract that I sign with the ID I eventually pick, or should I draft up another contract on top of the one the ID firm will ask me to sign?

[spiffysue 0]

Thanks for sharing your experience! It's going to help ground us when we next speak to the ID from the firm. Were you informed that the ID you were speaking to would not be the supervisor on-site? We specifically asked the ID we are speaking to and she told us that she will be the one checking the site. Did your ID tell you that in the beginning before you confirmed them and then suddenly pull a fast-one on you after you signed?

Is your ID apologetic, at least? They should feel sorry that your project dragged on for so long right? Not that him being apologetic helps anything, but at least if he knows he's in the wrong...

By the way, did you agree to the payment schedule that they stated in their contract (20% upon confirmation, 30% upon commencement of works, 45% upon commencement of wet works or measuring of carpentry, 5% final payment upon completion)? We're thinking of negotiating the payment schedule, but not sure if it's something that's acceptable in this industry.

Sorry for the deluge of questions! Thanks in advance for your kind sharing!

Yup, the proj mamanger was introduced to us at the 2nd/3rd meeting. We knew he would be the one on-site, not the ID. which i'm fine with, because the PM is a very technical and experienced guy. But he didn't show up that much.. only before/after every major task, to make sure it was done ok.

The payment schedule is pretty standard across the industry - i don't think you can do much negotiating on that. of course, no harm trying though. but because they've pissed us off so badly, they havent dared to ask us for the remaining 40% that we were supposed to pay upon delivery of carpentry. on our end, we've been advised by experienced parents/relatives to hold our payment until the handover. this is to make sure they don't dilly-dally and drag even further.

[adidaem 6]

Question: Should we be stating this in our existing contract with the ID, or should we draft up a separate contract just to include our terms and conditions?

My IDs did not agree to use the CASE contract. We negotiated to change some terms, and mainly focused on the payment terms to make it less unbalanced. 5% at the end is too little IMO.

Haha, I loved that sentence that you loved your furniture taste more than your ID

My ID brought me to shop for lights, toilet & kitchen accessories, furniture...etc

I do believe that one of your ID job is to make sure all your furnishing complement one another.

Example - you really love that shocking pink lounge chair but will it be able to blend in with your overall Scandinavian or minimalist theme? Nuff said, that is for you to decide since you will be the one staying there, not your ID

I thought furniture shopping was the most fun part of reno really. Plus I think I'm more 'on' about sniffing out sales and deals. Love furniture shopping... so yeah, now that I've done it I wouldn't want to let future IDs shop for me. We also got all the Grohe stuff during their warehouse sale even before we engaged any ID, haha.

Thanks for the aircon contact (Aircon Designs Pte Ltd, right?). Have them bookmarked. Shall contact them when it's time to fret over aircon!

Sure, if you do contact them do let them know intro-ed by the Mei Ling St HDB. They worked with my contractor to hide all the pipes and stuff, and provided inputs on where to place the blowers to hide the pipes. Also came twice for installation (1 for pipes, 1 for blowers). Stuff I don't think Gain City would do. I really hate ugly ac trunkings so this was really important to me.

I agree with you though, hahaha. Not that I know if my IDs' tastes are the same as mine yet, but we already bought 2 pieces on our own without their guidance

Good point! Note to self: remember to get measurements!

Thanks adidaem!

No prob. I believe you will have more fun shopping for furniture yourself. Just trust your instincts - you know what you like best and not some ID that you have only known for a few hours.

[summersann 6]

Yup, the proj mamanger was introduced to us at the 2nd/3rd meeting. We knew he would be the one on-site, not the ID. which i'm fine with, because the PM is a very technical and experienced guy. But he didn't show up that much.. only before/after every major task, to make sure it was done ok.

Oh okay, it's good that they were upfront about it. I haven't met any project manager so far with all my meetings with them. Thanks for sharing your experience! I'll ask the ID about this point just to be sure.

The payment schedule is pretty standard across the industry - i don't think you can do much negotiating on that. of course, no harm trying though. but because they've pissed us off so badly, they havent dared to ask us for the remaining 40% that we were supposed to pay upon delivery of carpentry. on our end, we've been advised by experienced parents/relatives to hold our payment until the handover. this is to make sure they don't dilly-dally and drag even further.

Yeah, just hold on to it! See if you can only pay them a significant amount of it only after you've lived in the unit for 1-2 weeks. That's what I'm hoping to negotiate. Seems more fair that way.

[summersann 6]

My IDs did not agree to use the CASE contract. We negotiated to change some terms, and mainly focused on the payment terms to make it less unbalanced. 5% at the end is too little IMO.

I agree! When I saw the payment schedule, I just didn't think it was very fair because I would be paying each time something starts, without even getting to see the process or end-product. So, I would expect the final payment to at least be a significant-enough amount so that it would serve as a form of "protection" for ourselves. But great to know that you negotiated with your ID about the payment schedule! At least now I know I can do that

Sure, if you do contact them do let them know intro-ed by the Mei Ling St HDB. They worked with my contractor to hide all the pipes and stuff, and provided inputs on where to place the blowers to hide the pipes. Also came twice for installation (1 for pipes, 1 for blowers). Stuff I don't think Gain City would do. I really hate ugly ac trunkings so this was really important to me.

Noted! Will name-drop if I do use them. The boy was researching and found this other company that's apparently good too. Hong Tar Engineering Pte Ltd. Anyone heard of them? The boy's trying to do the calculations on how big an air-con unit we need. Here I was thinking air-cons were all the same, and that we just buy the brand we want and fix it in. Haha

[ultimax 2]

Well said! I was thinking of also including a clause where the ID will have to compensate $XX per day for delays (of course, this means we should agree on a reasonable date of completion). Ultimax, do you think I should state these in the same contract that I sign with the ID I eventually pick, or should I draft up another contract on top of the one the ID firm will ask me to sign?

I think it's a reasonable request. Though I'm not sure how you would calculate the penalty.

I suggest you take the contract home to read, then add the clauses you want. IDs will expect you to sign the document on the spot. Tell them you want to carefully read through it. I think 9 times out of 10 people will just sign on the spot. This will add time to the process, but if you want to really protect your interests, you've got to set that time aside.

The ID may not want to modify his contract, though. There isn't any industyr "norm", but he'll probably say it's a standard contract.

What should you do then? You can walk away, but you may not find another ID you like. And as you know, all this takes a lot of time. IDs, sadly, are not interchangeable. It's not like going to Harvey Norman if Best Denki doesn't want to accommodate you.

As you can see, if you're an honest client, you're really at a disadvantage when it comes to the ID contract. You just gotta pray that your ID can put himself in your shoes, and see where you're coming from.

I would be upfront with the ID about the deadline. First, give them a reasonable deadline. Then tell them you die die cannot move in later than that. Make up some excuse if you have to. Like you'll be evicted from your current flat. Then ask for a completion of works schedule.

Your ID should then know your deadline really is fixed, and he should play ball if he's honest.

I wonder if the newly passed "Lemon Law" is applicable to renovations with shoddy work

[summersann 6]

I suggest you take the contract home to read, then add the clauses you want. IDs will expect you to sign the document on the spot. Tell them you want to carefully read through it. I think 9 times out of 10 people will just sign on the spot. This will add time to the process, but if you want to really protect your interests, you've got to set that time aside.

Words of wisdom! Ultimax, do you have a t-blog? I tried looking, but can't seem to find one. You should totally start something where you share your experiences. So many people will benefit from it!

What should you do then? You can walk away, but you may not find another ID you like. And as you know, all this takes a lot of time. IDs, sadly, are not interchangeable. It's not like going to Harvey Norman if Best Denki doesn't want to accommodate you.

As you can see, if you're an honest client, you're really at a disadvantage when it comes to the ID contract. You just gotta pray that your ID can put himself in your shoes, and see where you're coming from.

So true. Guess the popular IDs probably know this themselves. I don't even want to think about starting the search for an ID all over again, especially after having met so many already

I would be upfront with the ID about the deadline. First, give them a reasonable deadline. Then tell them you die die cannot move in later than that. Make up some excuse if you have to. Like you'll be evicted from your current flat. Then ask for a completion of works schedule.

Your ID should then know your deadline really is fixed, and he should play ball if he's honest.

I wonder if the newly passed "Lemon Law" is applicable to renovations with shoddy work

Good point. I haven't been very firm with the IDs I'm still talking to about the deadline. I only state we want to move "as soon as possible". We're going to have to come up with something to make sure our interests are protected!

The Lemon Law. Hahaha. I don't even know how it's really being enforced since its introduction a while back.

[summersann 6]

Finally found what I've been trying to convey to the IDs we've met. All along, I've been going, "Scandinavian, with a bit of industrial, but some vintage." (I know. I'm a very confused person )

Turns out, there's another style that's closer to what I want than whatever I've been mentioning all this while. "Mid-century modern", is apparently what some call it. But I still don't quite like everything about that style. But I finally found pictures of what comes very very close!

(Pardon the random pictures!)

Happily shared the new discovery with the ID we're currently inclined towards. Think it was a relief for her because we didn't make much sense previously

She then told us about a famous landmark - Charles and Ray Eames House.

It's not exactly what we're going for, but wow, it's gorgeous.

[adidaem 6]

I agree! When I saw the payment schedule, I just didn't think it was very fair because I would be paying each time something starts, without even getting to see the process or end-product. So, I would expect the final payment to at least be a significant-enough amount so that it would serve as a form of "protection" for ourselves. But great to know that you negotiated with your ID about the payment schedule! At least now I know I can do that

Noted! Will name-drop if I do use them. The boy was researching and found this other company that's apparently good too. Hong Tar Engineering Pte Ltd. Anyone heard of them? The boy's trying to do the calculations on how big an air-con unit we need. Here I was thinking air-cons were all the same, and that we just buy the brand we want and fix it in. Haha

My IDs were willing to nego, dunno if the bigger boys will tho, as Ultimax has mentioned. Don't forget if they have so many projects on hand, they may not want to take on your project if they perceive you as a 'difficult' customer. To be fair to IDs/contractors, there are customers from h*ll too. Those who plan on not paying the remaining XX from the beginning and will kau pen kau boo all the way.

For aircon BTU computations, my learnings are in this post: http://emrenoblog.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/hot-nights-and-btus/

Yeah, BTU is impt. Those salesman who dunno better always say standard 9k is enough for living room. So duh lor.

Finally found what I've been trying to convey to the IDs we've met. All along, I've been going, "Scandinavian, with a bit of industrial, but some vintage." (I know. I'm a very confused person )

Turns out, there's another style that's closer to what I want than whatever I've been mentioning all this while. "Mid-century modern", is apparently what some call it. But I still don't quite like everything about that style. But I finally found pictures of what comes very very close!

Happily shared the new discovery with the ID we're currently inclined towards. Think it was a relief for her because we didn't make much sense previously

She then told us about a famous landmark - Charles and Ray Eames House.

It's not exactly what we're going for, but wow, it's gorgeous.

Ah... yes fairly popular theme in SG and in RT-ers homes. Have you had a look at the other T-Blogs with that theme?

If you are going to get your own furniture (which is fun and I'll recommend to homeowners who have decent sense of aesthetics) these store listings may help?

- 20 places to buy mid-modern/vintage/retro furnitures: http://emrenoblog.wordpress.com/2011/06/18/20-places-to-buy-mid-modernvintageretro-furnitures/

- The (unofficial) Tan Boon Liat Building furniture directory: http://emrenoblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/the-unofficial-tan-boon-liat-building-furniture-directory/

- Places to buy home accessories & decorations: http://emrenoblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/places-to-buy-home-accessories-decorations/

[ultimax 2]

Words of wisdom! Ultimax, do you have a t-blog? I tried looking, but can't seem to find one. You should totally start something where you share your experiences. So many people will benefit from it!

Haha no I don't have a reno-blog. Thought of starting one but my renos occured when I was very busy. In fact, a lot of what I shared was learnt after the renos because I didn't have time to think through the whole process while it was happening.

I might compile the various topics discussed into a FAQ of sorts.

I may also start a post-reno blog on things we did after our renos were completed. All you get after your renos is a shell. A nice shell, but still a shell. It's the small things, the accessories that make a big difference. My wife and I have a long list of post-reno projects to personalise our house

So true. Guess the popular IDs probably know this themselves. I don't even want to think about starting the search for an ID all over again, especially after having met so many already

Good point. I haven't been very firm with the IDs I'm still talking to about the deadline. I only state we want to move "as soon as possible". We're going to have to come up with something to make sure our interests are protected!

The Lemon Law. Hahaha. I don't even know how it's really being enforced since its introduction a while back.

The two worst things you can tell an ID are:

1. "My budget's flexible." Give your ID a firm figure so that he has a figure to work around. Unless of course your budget really is flexible ...

2. "Finish renos as soon as possible." Who defines "possible?" Chances are, the ID will if you don't seize the initiative to do so.

We made both mistakes. Worked out in the end, but it caused a bumpy initial start.

I think it's important to start a business relationship on the right footing, and ensuring everyone's on the same page as far as $ and time are concerned is fundamental to that.

[ultimax 2]

Trying to express what you want is quite normal. Very often, you know what you don't want, but don't know what you want

Our tastes are very similar.

Pay attention to your cabinet doors. Because they are so big, they can make or break the style. You'll need doors with a little bit of embellishment, not the flat, two-dimensional, straight-lined design that's popular with IDs now (because it's supposedly in vogue, and it's much much cheaper to fabricate). As I mentioned earlier, consider working with Ikea doors. Custom making them can be expensive. But check out how much it costs to do so anyway, and see which is a better overall deal.

You can also have some fun with door knobs and handles. They can really change the look of a place because they're so visible, and there are so many of them around your house.

Finally found what I've been trying to convey to the IDs we've met. All along, I've been going, "Scandinavian, with a bit of industrial, but some vintage." (I know. I'm a very confused person )

Turns out, there's another style that's closer to what I want than whatever I've been mentioning all this while. "Mid-century modern", is apparently what some call it. But I still don't quite like everything about that style. But I finally found pictures of what comes very very close!

It's not exactly what we're going for, but wow, it's gorgeous.