Executive Living - Sofa

[tankenz 0]

Hi Tankenz

You are really making my day, I was busy and fuming until I saw your post, I almost split my sides. Jokes aside. I cant answer your questions as I think its I do not see any context in it with EL.

A tip for you, please visit the Furniture trade show in KL next March, after that its still not too late for you to eat your words

Quote ' And i can say is due to labour cost and materials shortage , how can malaysia do export to european countries compare to china ??'

I can see the kind of depth you have in your understanding. Pardon me if you feel offended, its just that I couldnt help but take a dig at your expense. I hope you will think carefully before you post comment pertaining to EL.

You can have a laugh no problem with us ... and honestly Malaysia trade show im not into it .. but will be going on SEP for Dongguan and Shanhai trade fair. but i think Alvin Ong aka wu ta lang knows very well about his own furnitures and really compare to some big reputation factories in China where they OEM sofas for many Amercians Listed companies. No doubt EL have some very nice design sofas etc but as what Sam had mention , the things mention in your website not tally with what you have said here.. and always the case when somethings crop up , all u need to say is sorry sorry its a mistake.. how can you be a right hand man beside alvin makes mistake in your own sofa mech ?? cant believe it lol.. anyway that have been clear so its all good now..

by the way very nice website for EL .. but dont see website mention you have half leather

[SamTheMan 7]

Hi Mr. Executive Living,

With regards to the crystal glass thingy, it is not deduction, it is with years of experience that I conclude that not all your glass surfaces are made with crystal glass. In fact, I am sure that none of your glass surfaces is made with crystal glass for the following reasons:

1. The facets you claim are edges that glass manufacturers cut.

2. Based on the prices of your glass items, you would lose money on every sale if the items are made of crystal glass.

The reason you claim that the items are crystal glass is probably once again copy writing. You want to make it sound like you are a premium brand when you are just selling mass market products.

With regards to your Full-Grain option, by your own admission, the thickest leather you have is 1.7mm. A piece of cowhide is 5-7mm. In other words you don't have this option. Meaning you are just putting things on your website to make it sound like you are a premium provider. Either that or you have a total lack of product knowledge.

For all I know your leather can be from timbuktu because as you said this is what your distributor tells you. But that's neither here nor there.

True enough, you are not claiming that your products are made in Europe or USA when your products are from Malaysia and China. Having said that your products are not really premium quality products but your prices are tending towards the mid-range. I wouldn't say great value for money.

Consumers are better off spending their hard earned money at more established company at lower prices for the kind of products that you carry.

All I can say is that you guys have a decent eye for sofas and the designs are interesting but if your prices are dropped by about 30% then I would say that your products are a good value for money.

Anyway, I know you are everybody else is in business to make money, your goal is to maximize profit for each item sold. It's your prerogative to price your products according to your wishes.

However this is an internet forum to share opinions and my opinion is that you are overpriced for the kind of items you carry. Having said that you are probably not the only furniture company selling overpriced items. There are numerous companies on this forum that has a multitude of complaints and they still sell items at a very high price.

So if you can convince your customers to buy your products and the prices you charge, more power to you.

[Synace 0]

I went to EL showroom twice, was served by 2 different sales-persons, none of them told me those sofa sets advertised on papers are only half leather, but just kept stressing those are top grain leather...until I realized on my own the different feel of the leather at the arm-rest and the back of the sofa and started questioning them, then the salesperson (the first 1 didn't even want to admit) unwillingly told me it's not full grain at the back...but then again questioned me back "why do you need genuine leather if you are not using, touching, sitting on it?".

I'm not saying they were trying to bluff me, but it's better to be upfront and explain to customers all the goods and bads about the products they are selling, no point just mentioning all the pros of the items and hiding all the cons. Just let the customers know the different prices for different materials used for different package, customers can make comparisons and decisions on their own which to go for, never question back the customers why want to throw money into the drain by getting something which they think it's not necessary.

[SamTheMan 7]

Hi Mr. Executive Living,

Say if I were to order a Crystal Glass item from your store and I send it for independent testing and if it turns out that it is not crystal glass, would you be open to refunding me for the item and the cost of testing?

A 3m long half leather L-shape sofa in corrected grain bovine leather/pvc will cost approximately, SGD600-900 landed in Singapore.

A reasonable margin for a sofa is 45-50% to cover your costs. In other words a 3m half leather sofa that retails at SGD1399-1999 inclusive of GST would be considered a reasonable price. Strangely enough, I was at Jurong Point yesterday and I saw a half leather L-Shape sofa at about 2.4m long at Sea Horse and it was retailing at SGD879. I would imagine my estimate is already a little on the high side.

But every company has a different cost structure, some are more efficient than others. Perhaps you would like to enlighten us on your own cost structure.

[tankenz 0]

Hi Sam

In some areas you might be right, like the mechanism which I mistaken it for legend plate when it should be leggett platt, but I have to disagree when you said that Malaysia and China cannot produce premium products.

China slightly better , as we often hear China reputation factories OEM sofa for italian companies. But malaysia hardly.

Perhaps you name me a few that carry exactly the same products with a lower price?

Saint Louis , Arrow Furnishing etc

. Do you know the actual cost of a half leather 3 m long sofa from Malaysia?

$1500.00-$1700.00.Due to small size factory,the quanity of materials they order from supplier is less , therefore it cost so much higher for malaysian factory made sofa compare to big Chinese factory who offer better quality but might be selling at same price.

[tankenz 0]

Hi Tankenz

I would like to invite you to the KL international Fair next March before you comment on anything.

Please come down to our showroom and see if we have any similar models with Aero or ST louis. Most of EL's brand of sofa comes with mechanism, slider, recliner or foldable back rest. Please make parallel comparison.

China big factories which produces premium sofa sets are not very interested in the Singapore market, unless you want to go for the lesser known ones whom you might have to compromise on the quality. Furhermore, the amount of logistical work and the delivery lead time is a potential time bomb. The rest, I cannot reveal further, if you are in this trade you will understand what I am talking about.

Lastly, I couldnt agree more with you on the pricing. However these are suppliers pricing. They are those middle men who are more profit oriented rather than innovation and value for money products.

its ok .. been there many times in the past , cant compareable with the chinese .. design , quality retail sales or export sales cant compare .. still the chinese.. Malaysian factory can duplicate design , but they cant come out new design ..and its definately too expensive to take from them.. why some singapore companies take from them due to they are small company and cant take quality goods from china as they need quanity. but of course malaysia sofa production is faster then china .. quality wise .. CHINA !!

[SamTheMan 7]

Hi Sam

Yes, we will honour what you have ordered, the reason for a succeessful business model in EL is that we deliver what the customers ordered. You can always try, however when you purchase from us, please make very clear to the sales person that you wanted the glass to be crystal glass and have it put down in the sales order.

If you can provide me a 3m long half leather L sofa bovine corrected grain for SGD 600 to SGD 900, coupled with adjustable headrest, sliding mechanism with pocketed spring cushion, I would gladly pay SGD 1000 to SGD 1200 for it. I am very interested if you are able to find me a supplier like that, either I will quit , open a showroom myself or ask our bossess to close down all their factories and get the produscts from them. Look, this is not a challenge but a geniune enquiry, Please find me the supplies. Tankenz is more realistic, I think he owns a business, that is why he knows that cost of a sofa.

I think you are experience enough to differentiate between the leather seahorse offers and what we offers, I do not want to comment but please find out what kind of leather are they using. I have come across customers who bought a seahorse leather sofa after 1 and ahalf year, starts to peel. Geniune leather do not peel. Technically speaking, bonded leather is leather too. That explains the selling price to you.

I am sorry, I cannot reveal our costs and margin to you in this aspect, however I can tell you that your 45% to 50% inclusive of delievry and GST will make you lose money for every sofa that you sell. Please do not forget the infrastructure of the company needed to support the sales.

Maybe you share with me what you think of our promotional sets. 2.57m L shape sofa, in half leather bovine corrected grain , options for more than 20 colours, 1 powered slider from leggett platt 1 manual slide, adjustable headrest and pocketed spring system for the seats. Selling at S$2299.00 nett. Is it a good buy?

Hi EL,

So $2299 net will be $2086 before GST. Since you say you need more than 50% GP to survive, let's just say you are working of 60%. So the sofa will cost you only $834. That's within my estimate. So what are you trying to tell me, me confuse.

[SamTheMan 7]

Hi Sam

What I meant is that promotional set, that means we do not make much from that model. I am implying if you regard this as a good buy say if the sofa cost SGD 1700 to SGD 1800. You see what I meant? I am asking if this promotional item is value for money, I am asking for your opinion.

Hi EL,

If you actually have to buy a half leather sofa at SGD1700 you must really evaluate your buyer. For SGD1700 I can get what you mentioned in full cowhide in 1.5mm thickness.

I have given my 2 cents worth, I am sure that as you mentioned your very learned customers will make an intelligent decision.

[newcomer1 0]

As a layman we cannot tell the different types of leather such as Cowhide, Full-grain leather , Top-grain leather , Semi-aniline leather etc

We are at the mercy of the salesman(if they did not tell the truth)saying that this sofa is of certain type of real leather(which is not true) then we are paying at a high price for something not real

What should we as a layman do if we go shopping for real leather sofa in order not be cheated by the salesman ?

[kalimantan 6]

dear newcomer1

If i really want FULL leather, i will definitely go for reputable brands. The assurance is there.

Yes price is high, but you feel good and can last for years. I've bought my full leather 3 + 2 sofa for 7k (5 years back) and sofa still smell like leather with my children and my sweat "built into the sofa" and no peel, etc

I believe SamTheMan provide a list of reputable brands and you can easily search for it.

I always suggest this:

a) go to top-end brands, have a seat in sofa.

b) then go to lower brands and have a seat in sofa

You will feel the differences. There is no need for salesman talk after that. My wife never complain of the sofa.

[GrandReno 0]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

1. A lot of sales people lie or will give consumers the false impression that their made in China $2000-3000+ sofas are "Top grade" Italian leather. Few question them what they mean by "top grade". This is a technical term in the leather sofa industry I believe. But some consumers innocently thought "top grade" simply means excellent quality.

2. People tend to associate the word "Italian" with good quality. So nowadays, I see sales people using this word so freely. In other words, they try to cheat customers or play with their psychology. Yes, ours Italian leather. Everything, they use the word Italian this, Italian that. Even "Italian inspired" to confuse consumers into thinking their sofas are associated with Italy. Ha... What a joke.

3. If you want made in Italy sofa, using real top grade leather, you usually have to pay $8000 and above. The really good ones are in excess of $10,000.

4. Made in Italy or more expensive leather sofas do not mean everything. Don't be stupid to waste your hard-earned money (if you are not rich) or take a financial loan from somewhere....just to pay for expensive leather sofa because you read in forums like Renotalk or elsewhere that you must pay a lot to get excellent leather.... cos they are thicker, real, last longer, more comfortable, etc etc.

You have to learn to draw the line somewhere. It's not that $2000 leather sofas are no good. People here are too ready to say they split, flake, tear easily. It depends on how you use it. I have friends who buy relatively cheap leather sofas and they have lasted for a few years. Of course, if you compare Ferrari to Toyota. Which is better? People are tempted to say Ferrari. I say No, how much do you earn a month and what is your budget? Do you need a Ferrari? Probably not. A Toyota is better for you.

But what I do hope is that sales people tell the truth and don't take customer for fools. I've heard too often less than $2000 2-3 seater sofas being labelled as "Full leather", high quality, blah blah, when most of it is not true.

5. It's unfortunate sales people from various companies (furniture, ID, lighting, etc etc) are coming in to Renotalk to do indirect advertisement by posting all sorts of info, which is sometimes misleading, incomplete, or downright lying. They give you the impression that they are helping you. Think about it. They are advertising!

Some of them also pose as previous customers. This is uncalled for I feel. If your business is good, I don't think you will waste your time on such forums typing long posts and defending yourselves when people could tell you are not telling the whole truth.

If you are really good, you will be busy selling sofas in your shops and showroom! Your REAL customers will speak of your company. You don't have to do the advertising yourselves.

So in short, I will totally avoid companies who out of nowhere, post in Renotalk to explain things or give away info. That's just me. People here are free to disagree. It's just that I feel nowadays, sadly, there are too many dishonest sales people around. I have no time to sift thru the real and the bad. It's the fastest way for me to avoid being conned.

[ugene512 0]

waa.. that's a lot of heat just for a sofa. Why do we have to make it so difficult? If we as consumers are to do this for everything we buy. We will die man, imagine to go down to the circuit board of a LED TV questioning them where do they get their capacitors or resistors. Waa.. that is to horrible.

I think as consumers as long as all is in black and white written down and honor by the respective companies it will be fine. Ultimately, we want to use the product for as long as possible if there is a problem? solve it not push it.

Anyways, I think you guys are great and all of us learn...

Edited August 16, 2011 by ugene512

[swiper 0]

Was at expo last weekend checking out 3 seater sofa. I quite like one of the model from EL and was qouted ~ 3k. Am deciding whether to go for Lorenzo or EL sofa. Is it common that we need to wait for 6 weeks for the sofa to be deliver?

[Phintastic 0]

Aiyoh!!!! I am not sure if I am going to have any enemy sending this comment, please dont flame me.

Buy a set of sofa only why so many comments until to the extent what type of business models is EL running on, even questioning about company cost structures. Relax lah, this is juz a forum for layman like me and many others to share knowledge and comments, not to bother about how retailers make money or how much money they make. If want to compare high end brand, they make even higher profit. Once in a while, we see brands like Gucci, Ferragamo having closed doors sales. Discount up to 50%. We all know that at 50% discount, they still make marginal profit but does anyone ask or think about the profit margin or cost structure of their company when we are spending money in their boutiques?

I am sure readers like me appreciate other forummers sharing their knowledge on leather and sofas. No offence to anyone in this reading this thread.

To me, buying a set of sofa and about whether the design suit my eyes, price fit my budget, size fit my living and so long stated on invoice is half leather when it is half leather, full leather when it is full leather. When the retailer state leather in the invoice they mean real leather and not real synthetic leather can liao. How thick is the leather should be made known during the leather selection, so long you like the texture and thickness can liao. Who cares what grade it is called. So long Buyer happy and they receive exactly what they ordered for is most important.

I am not saying this becos I purchase a set of sofa from EL. Like I mentioned before, I am still keeping my fingers crossed until I see my sofa this Saturday.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Phintastic

[SamTheMan 7]

Aiyoh!!!! I am not sure if I am going to have any enemy sending this comment, please dont flame me.

Buy a set of sofa only why so many comments until to the extent what type of business models is EL running on, even questioning about company cost structures. Relax lah, this is juz a forum for layman like me and many others to share knowledge and comments, not to bother about how retailers make money or how much money they make. If want to compare high end brand, they make even higher profit. Once in a while, we see brands like Gucci, Ferragamo having closed doors sales. Discount up to 50%. We all know that at 50% discount, they still make marginal profit but does anyone ask or think about the profit margin or cost structure of their company when we are spending money in their boutiques?

I am sure readers like me appreciate other forummers sharing their knowledge on leather and sofas. No offence to anyone in this reading this thread.

To me, buying a set of sofa and about whether the design suit my eyes, price fit my budget, size fit my living and so long stated on invoice is half leather when it is half leather, full leather when it is full leather. When the retailer state leather in the invoice they mean real leather and not real synthetic leather can liao. How thick is the leather should be made known during the leather selection, so long you like the texture and thickness can liao. Who cares what grade it is called. So long Buyer happy and they receive exactly what they ordered for is most important.

I am not saying this becos I purchase a set of sofa from EL. Like I mentioned before, I am still keeping my fingers crossed until I see my sofa this Saturday.

Good point Phin. Willing buyer willing seller means good deal.