A Review On The Pc 12 Ultra Sub (Aka The Public Dustbin)

[EmptyDivided 0]

Hi guys,

I am sure many of us here have pondered about what subs to get, which brand to buy, what size to get. My wife and I have visited KEC several times to audition. I have personally heard Velodynes CHT 8Q, CHT 10 Q, SVS PB 13 Ultra and the B&W PV1. In all fairness, the Velodynes were of the lower range, with lower powered amps as compared to the other two brands. Thus, I found the imaging not accurate, overly boomy and undefined. I am a novice at this, so please read with an open mind. Some may like the Vedlodynes and find them great, so please do your homework and listen to all despite individual views. One thing I realized on my journey in my HTS is that everyone's preference differs.

Given a limited budget due to reno expenses, I was given a challenge. Try to achieve a HTS under $3k. This $3k includes only amp, speakers and sub. The hunt began. I was disappointed with Velodynes performance and continued with my research online. The SVS PB 13 and PV 1 sounded much better. So i told my wife we were going to get an SVS. She said okay if it was within budget. I posted on another website looking for an svs sub and I bought a mint condition PC 12 Ultra.(It is a round cylindrical shape sub shaped older version)

The guys from KEC came to install the system. The mains are Wharfedale 10.6s, 10cs for the centre and 10.0 for the rears. An Onkyo 609 powers the speakers and sub and the player is an Oppo 93.

The Dark Knight was used to test the system. The Wharfedales were clear and crisp. But what blew me off was the sub. My wife is a bass freak. So she got the guy to turn up the sub. I was directing some work at another part of the house and I heard a boom in the back ground and following that my wife shrieked followed by immense laughter. She yelled for me to have a listen. And we played the scene again.Its the scene where the robbers shoot an arrow through a glass. the bass was accurate not boomy. The sound replicated felt like a punch. I could feel air movement against my face. It seems exaggerated, but I did feel the air move. It was fantastic. I can't wait to watch more but due to the disappointments in the reno works, we can't move in and it is three weeks late, now moving into the fourth. I will update more when I watch more movies.

What I can safely conclude to say is,

1. the more power driving you feed your sub, the better it gets. An underpowered sub will give you a boomy sound.

2. SVS does live up to its reviews online.

3. 8", 10", 12", 15", 18"' 21" do all differ. 8" will be very punchy and short, and for the huge subs will be much bigger in sound and will send out way bigger reverberations. For me personally, pending on room size, speaker size and personal preferences, that is how a decision should be derived upon. An average sized living room I think(in my opinion) needs at least a 10" sub or a high powered 8".

I hope my experience will help those who are searching for their HTS. last and not least, kudos to the great service and patience KEC sales and installers provided. They are good. Period.

[Herlynn 0]

Mind me asking, how much u paid for your home system. ? Its 5.1 right? Sounds interesting. Its better if u could share photos. Hehe

[EmptyDivided 0]

Mind me asking, how much u paid for your home system. ? Its 5.1 right? Sounds interesting. Its better if u could share photos. Hehe

About $7,000. These includes;

1. Sony NX 710 46" 3D

2. Onkyo 609

3. Wharfedales 10.6 and 10.0

4. SVS sub PC 12 Ultra

5. Oppo 93 bluray player

6. AC Ryan playon 2

The TV costs quite a bit. As I have mentioned in my post before, the HTS(less the players and TV) is about $3k. It is a 5.1, upgradeable to 7.1. I would love to post photos of our humble entry set up, but now place is still undergoing works. Sadness. Once it is up, i will post photos.

[Herlynn 0]

Love to see ur theatre. Im will be hunting for ht soon. Any recommend shop in mind to start off.

[RimBlock 0]

Nice write up ED,

The Cylinder subs are known to push a lot of air and so create a 'shockwave' for want of a better description. Some love it and some not so much. This tactile feel is interesting but not quite as accurate. Would you feel the shockwave if you were there and the arrow shot through the glass ?. The point though is that you have a sub that both you and your wife love, gives great entertainment, looks fantastic if you have the room and has a good bit of power behind it.

A lot of the all-in-one HTS systems come with 5-6" subs and are pretty weak but take them away and you do notice a difference. For a small room a decent 8" should be fine but a 10" would be better.

From what I hear the Velodynes are better for music so I find the boomy quality you heard to be a bit of a surprise. Many different things can affect the sound though like the room shape and size, speaker placement and calibration. One thing I noticed when demoing was that the subs were not calibrated but just brought in and swapped over when it came their turn.

I have a different experience to you with my sub and that is that it blends very well almost in to the background. I sometimes am not sure the sub is on but if I were to turn it off the effect would be very obvious. As mine is the SB-12 (sealed box) I don't get the shockwave which I found fairly oppressive in the small demo room but would have been better out in my open living area. What I do get is the sharp screech and rumble of passing jet fighters. It does also manage some infra-bass where you feel more than hear the effect but not like a big pressure wall.

It will be great to hear your when I finally am able to visit. Properly calibrated it should be great.

What this also goes to show is, as ED stated, sound, bass included, is a very personal thing. Different people like different things.

But... hey, it's all good

RB

[EmptyDivided 0]

Love to see ur theatre. Im will be hunting for ht soon. Any recommend shop in mind to start off.

Try KEC. They have a great range for most budgets. They are at Adelphi. Plenty of high end shops there. HTS is like opening a can of worms. Set yourself a budget and work along with that. Why don't you read the thread on recommendation on a decent sound system thread? Quite informative. What is your budget? And what sort of usage would you use the hts for? 50% music 50% movie for example? And in terms of looks, what is acceptable? RB gives very sound advice(no pun intended).

[EmptyDivided 0]

Nice write up ED,

The Cylinder subs are known to push a lot of air and so create a 'shockwave' for want of a better description. Some love it and some not so much. This tactile feel is interesting but not quite as accurate. Would you feel the shockwave if you were there and the arrow shot through the glass ?. The point though is that you have a sub that both you and your wife love, gives great entertainment, looks fantastic if you have the room and has a good bit of power behind it.

A lot of the all-in-one HTS systems come with 5-6" subs and are pretty weak but take them away and you do notice a difference. For a small room a decent 8" should be fine but a 10" would be better.

From what I hear the Velodynes are better for music so I find the boomy quality you heard to be a bit of a surprise. Many different things can affect the sound though like the room shape and size, speaker placement and calibration. One thing I noticed when demoing was that the subs were not calibrated but just brought in and swapped over when it came their turn.

I have a different experience to you with my sub and that is that it blends very well almost in to the background. I sometimes am not sure the sub is on but if I were to turn it off the effect would be very obvious. As mine is the SB-12 (sealed box) I don't get the shockwave which I found fairly oppressive in the small demo room but would have been better out in my open living area. What I do get is the sharp screech and rumble of passing jet fighters. It does also manage some infra-bass where you feel more than hear the effect but not like a big pressure wall.

It will be great to hear your when I finally am able to visit. Properly calibrated it should be great.

What this also goes to show is, as ED stated, sound, bass included, is a very personal thing. Different people like different things.

But... hey, it's all good

RB

Thanks RB. Just paying forward. I have learned much here and I do appreciate that.

Anyways yeah, still have got that 100 hours to run in both for my TV and speakers. The Wharfedales sounded a bit too neutral and sharp for my liking. They sounded different in the showroom. I will have to patiently wait for that hundred hours before they would shine. Thus I am not writing a review on them at the moment.

Calibration is something I have to learn. But the first stepping stone is the controls. Too many controls with too many functions. It makes me dizzy looking at them. The wife is better with them actually. The on screen ipod menu is actually quite a cool feature with the 609s.

Come, come when you are free to show me how to calibrate. And I would love to hear your sealed sub. It must sound very punchy. I had two PPI 12 inch in my car with a sealed box before. I had an Xtant 1000 watt d class mono block amp powering them. They were mean!

[RimBlock 0]

Anyways yeah, still have got that 100 hours to run in both for my TV and speakers. The Wharfedales sounded a bit too neutral and sharp for my liking. They sounded different in the showroom. I will have to patiently wait for that hundred hours before they would shine. Thus I am not writing a review on them at the moment.

Ahh yes, something easily forgotten. Running in to loosen the speakers and get them to optimum state. Just play some nice high pitched 'only dogs can hear' tones for a few days while you are out . Would love to hear what the Wharfedale are like. They are highly reviewed most places in that price bracket so should be great.

Calibration is something I have to learn. But the first stepping stone is the controls. Too many controls with too many functions. It makes me dizzy looking at them. The wife is better with them actually.

I like 'original' sound so I just try to setup so the equipment changes the music or movie soundtrack as little as possible. Others like to tune the sound to their ears, as you mentioned your wife prefers more bass. Nothing wrong with that at all but it is hard to calibrate as it is subjective to the listener . Best you can do is calibrate for neutral and then tune for the listener afterwords. I need to do mine first properly when I get some time, a decent mic, no screaming kids running around the house . I am sure we can work something out afterwards and do yours too. What did KEC do to set up your system ?. Did they just run the config program on the amp ?.

The on screen ipod menu is actually quite a cool feature with the 609s.

Nice. THe 667 has gotten the OSD of the much higher prices Yamaha amps and it makes set-up / configuration so much easier as well.

Come, come when you are free to show me how to calibrate. And I would love to hear your sealed sub. It must sound very punchy. I had two PPI 12 inch in my car with a sealed box before. I had an Xtant 1000 watt d class mono block amp powering them. They were mean!

Maybe we will have to arrange a time when my wife is out as she is not so keen on the high volumes I like when listening. One evening is better as we can use the projector easier. I will see when she is likely to visit my MiL and let you know. My son is likely to stick around as he quite like the 'full effect home cinema' . After I have sorted my calibration out we can look at yours .

After watching Tron again last night (light cycle battle) it is my reference for a great bass surround sound movie. War of the Worlds has better bass effects but Tron has a better 'whole package' with effects, surround and music all merged in to one. I also need to go through some other eps of Band of Brothers too as the shelling of the troops hidden around Bastogne is likely to be 'shattering'. That may be one episode where shockwaves will significantly add to the experience . I will bring some movies / music over when I finally get round to visiting to try out on your system as well .

RB

RB

[EmptyDivided 0]

Ahh yes, something easily forgotten. Running in to loosen the speakers and get them to optimum state. Just play some nice high pitched 'only dogs can hear' tones for a few days while you are out . Would love to hear what the Wharfedale are like. They are highly reviewed most places in that price bracket so should be great.

I like 'original' sound so I just try to setup so the equipment changes the music or movie soundtrack as little as possible. Others like to tune the sound to their ears, as you mentioned your wife prefers more bass. Nothing wrong with that at all but it is hard to calibrate as it is subjective to the listener . Best you can do is calibrate for neutral and then tune for the listener afterwords. I need to do mine first properly when I get some time, a decent mic, no screaming kids running around the house . I am sure we can work something out afterwards and do yours too. What did KEC do to set up your system ?. Did they just run the config program on the amp ?.

Maybe we will have to arrange a time when my wife is out as she is not so keen on the high volumes I like when listening. One evening is better as we can use the projector easier. I will see when she is likely to visit my MiL and let you know. My son is likely to stick around as he quite like the 'full effect home cinema' . After I have sorted my calibration out we can look at yours .

After watching Tron again last night (light cycle battle) it is my reference for a great bass surround sound movie. War of the Worlds has better bass effects but Tron has a better 'whole package' with effects, surround and music all merged in to one. I also need to go through some other eps of Band of Brothers too as the shelling of the troops hidden around Bastogne is likely to be 'shattering'. That may be one episode where shockwaves will significantly add to the experience . I will bring some movies / music over when I finally get round to visiting to try out on your system as well .

RB

My wife and I will ensure the 100 hours are breached first before asking you over.

Okay I am going to sound like a complete idiot here. They just adjust each db on screen for every speaker for the loudness level. And they only showed us how to tweak for each different movie. Music wise nothing was demonstrated besides using the presets. I was listening to Stacey Kent and Lisa Ekdahl. Very clean and neutral as compared to my tube which was richer/fuller. When we turned on AC/DC, it was sharp again but the beats were accurate. Needs some tuning in after the running in still I reckon.

Hohoho. Band of Brothers is an excellent serial. I prefer this to the newer Pacific. yes Bastogne, the place filled with snow and inadequate winter wear. Are your neighbors complaining or saying about your noise levels? I am thinking of buying some noise insulation tape for the main doors and sliding doors, but she says it doesn't work. Yeah let me know which titles you are bring, just to check if we do have them too.

Btw you must be really busy with your new home, toys, kids and a new kid. How do you manage? My wife and I are feel like killing ourselves over this reno works. Thumbs up for you mate.

RB

[RimBlock 0]

Okay I am going to sound like a complete idiot here. They just adjust each db on screen for every speaker for the loudness level. And they only showed us how to tweak for each different movie. Music wise nothing was demonstrated besides using the presets. I was listening to Stacey Kent and Lisa Ekdahl. Very clean and neutral as compared to my tube which was richer/fuller. When we turned on AC/DC, it was sharp again but the beats were accurate. Needs some tuning in after the running in still I reckon.

Hmm, I would personally go to the amp, plug in the mic that came with it and run the config / setup option. Mine comes up when the amp senses the mic being plugged in. Have your sub at about half volume. The setup on the amp should manage the volume level and delay for each speaker so the listening position (where the mic is placed for the setup) gets the same comparative volume and timing for the sounds from all speakers. It is not perfect but it is usually the first step most people should do. If they were not using a SPL when setting up then I think you should defiantly run this as they are relying on their ears rather than science to get it right. You can tune to personal tastes from there.

Hohoho. Band of Brothers is an excellent serial. I prefer this to the newer Pacific. yes Bastogne, the place filled with snow and inadequate winter wear. Are your neighbors complaining or saying about your noise levels? I am thinking of buying some noise insulation tape for the main doors and sliding doors, but she says it doesn't work. Yeah let me know which titles you are bring, just to check if we do have them too.

I have not see Pacific yet but I read the BoB book before they made it in to the series. My fav is still ep 2 on the flight over to France. On the pre episode interview, have the volume up at a good level for hearing them talk and then just leave it alone for the whole aeroplane part. It gets so loud and really feels like you are next to the engines with the flack flying etc. It is tempting to turn it down out of fear for disturbing the neighbours. Now pair that with the flashes of flack going off on the projector and it really is a 'lost in the movie' moment for me.

So far, no one has complained. I bump in to the guy who lives down stairs to us now and then, his daughter is in our sons school class it seems, and have enquired about the noise but he says he has no issues at all. Guess these old buildings are pretty good at stopping the noise going too far (unless you re drilling or hacking the walls).

Btw you must be really busy with your new home, toys, kids and a new kid. How do you manage? My wife and I are feel like killing ourselves over this reno works. Thumbs up for you mate.

My wife is fantastic and so the day to day life tasks are usually taken care of leaving me to do the extra stuff like the wiring and chasing the kids who have a habit of ignoring her. Luckily my 'upset' booming voice is usually enough to stop both of them in their tracks . They do keep us busy though.

The reno works are a pain but you adapt and work with what you have the best you can. No toilet doors then hang sheets for now on a couple of removable hooks, we had no mirrors for a couple of months so I ended up shaving by 'estimation' and touch. No one laughed at work so it can't of been that bad. Getting it all together and finished is fantastic, seeing it so close but not getting closer is very frustrating. More so for me at this point as most of the things we need to complete I could do myself but then why am I paying the ID if I did....

Hassle your ID, get him to do his job on site with the workers and get an agreed firm schedule from him. With no schedule he can just keep excusing your completion away. With it you can hold him to it a bit easier. Just my thoughts . Maybe you should ask him down when I visit and we can have a few words . I promise to leave the baseball bat at home .

Rb

[EmptyDivided 0]

Yeah they could not do the auto calibration due to the noisy drilling works in the background that day. It is a good idea I do that soon, when silence can be achieved.

I tried adapting but without basic functions like sinks not working, now toilets removed, unless I use the swimming pool's bathing facilities, that is the only way of adapting. Toilet now has to be rehacked in certain areas to adjust the plumbing in both bathrooms. They said it can be achieved with tiles fixed back on today as well. I find that hard to believe given their progress. I can't even clean any area of the house or put things up as there will be so much dirt yet again. I won't elaborate further. I am just sitting here with fingers crossed the ID can do a handover this Friday as he has promised me, for the third time in three weeks. My wife thinks it is more likely in June. Ha! We will see.

Bats not needed. Passive anger seems to be the key. The day I explode in the house, there will be more air movement than the sub. He is not a bad ID. He just needs to better handle expectations from both his contractors and his client. And he needs a notebook to write things down. He seems to forget many things and he doesn't favor emails. Grumbles. Life goes on.

[RimBlock 0]

Bats not needed. Passive anger seems to be the key. The day I explode in the house, there will be more air movement than the sub. He is not a bad ID. He just needs to better handle expectations from both his contractors and his client. And he needs a notebook to write things down. He seems to forget many things and he doesn't favor emails. Grumbles. Life goes on.

Yes that seems to be a common issue. IDs do not like any paper trail of agreed items so they cannot be pinned to the wall when they fail to meet expectations.

I understand what you mean about not being able to work around it. Where are you staying now ?. Could you not tell him you hve to move out no option by XXX date and so it must be ready by then. We had to move out of our old place at a set time so our ID could not push back... it had to get done.

RB

[RimBlock 0]

An so, because of you I had a play with my Sub last night.

The first observation I have is that the new power amp is really allowing my Fronts to shine. I found the bass really empty before I bought the sub and power amp and thought it was mainly the sub that had corrected it. After turning off the sub whilst playing the light cycle part of Tron, the bass dropped off but no where near as much as I thought it would.

After turning the sub back on I had a look in the amps menu and reconfigured the subs adjustment of -10dB (the max possible for the amp) to 0 (the sub is set at 50% on the back) and turned on the max bass option.

Playing the same scene I could not just feel the air pressure in my chest and through the chair but in my throat as well. The big difference it made apart from the slightly uncomfortable vibrations was that the sections without the deep bass notes were 'muddied' and nowhere near as clear as they previously were.

Next I turned off the Max Bass setting and things improved distinctly. The sound was cleaner and clearer. Not as much vibration in the body but still enough through my chest and the sofa to give a very tactile link to the events on the screen.

By all accounts, I should turn the bass way down and sync the pressure level with the main speakers so when one produces 10dB, the sub also produces 10dB at the desired frequencies. This was the sub blends in to the soundstage rather than stands apart and much closer. I will see if I can sort out the phase tonight to make sure that is also optimality set.

My son also likes to turn off the power amp and when I came home last night the family was watching a movie with no sound coming out of the front main speakers. The movies sounded a bit strange but not significantly so. Just goes to show how much of a movie comes through the center speaker alone.

RB

[Herlynn 0]

Please enlighten me on this. Avr should do the job for a 5.1 system rite.? Why do we need a power amp when the avr already handles the sound well. Or is it for sound enhancement? My knowledge is so shallow on this. Do i need more than 1 AVR'? How much power per channel is best for a floorstand speakers, rear, ctr, and 12 inch sub. ? I have not decide to purchase any system yet, just wanna absorb knowledge abt hts so wont get con by sales prices. Thanks in advance fellow experts.

[RimBlock 0]

Please enlighten me on this. Avr should do the job for a 5.1 system rite.? Why do we need a power amp when the avr already handles the sound well. Or is it for sound enhancement? My knowledge is so shallow on this. Do i need more than 1 AVR'? How much power per channel is best for a floorstand speakers, rear, ctr, and 12 inch sub. ? I have not decide to purchase any system yet, just wanna absorb knowledge abt hts so wont get con by sales prices. Thanks in advance fellow experts.

The power per channel for most AVRs is usually per channel if only one channel is used or if only two channels are used. My Yamaha is rated at 90w/channel if only 2 channels are driven. See here for details and note that this type of specification is more or less an industry standard and not only done by Yamaha. This therefore means that if more than two channels are driven then the power required is taken out of that 90 watts. If you add 3 more channels you can therefore see the Watts/channel going down pretty steeply. Most subwoofers above the very basic have their own amplifiers and so do not take any power from the AVR.

So we have an amp that can handle powering 2 channels at 90 Watts @ 8 Ohms (180W in total) but we want to use 5 speakers. This then means we would have 36 watts per channel if all were used equally (they very rarely are but it will do for a rough overview). Now my speakers for the fronts are rated at 100Watts (RMS) @ 8 Ohms. Now if I just used my front 2 speakers then the amp would be close to the max the speakers could handle but as I am using 3 other speakers, the power supplied to my front L/R speakers is going to fall quite far below the max they can cope with.

How do we get round this.... we get less powerful speakers, we get a more powerful amplifier or we give the amplifier a boost by taking its need to add power for these power hungry speaker to another power only amplifier. Most one box amplifiers including AVRs are integrated amplifiers. This means they perform both the functions of the amplification chain in one box. These functions or stages are to act as a control for switching between inputs, controlling gain (volume) on the signal going to the power amp and to decode any fancy encoding on the signal coming to it like DTS, Dolby Digital or the newer HD audio formats. The first stage is known as the pre-amp stage. The second stage is increasing the amplitude of the pre-amp signal to a level where it can power the speakers. This second stage is the power amp stage. As you move higher up in the levels of HiFi, you will find that these two stages are ofter separated in to separate units to avoid interference between to two parts and to allow one part to be upgraded (i.e. the preamp part if new sound formats come out) without needing to change the other part. To aid this transition, some integrated amplifiers have preouts which bypass the amplifiers power amp stage and pass the signal to a separate power amp. The Yamaha 667 has these preouts and so I have added a separate power amp which can handle up to 200Watts per channel with 2 channels @ 8 Ohms to power my front L/R speakers. This then allows the remaining 180Watts to be spread between the center and the rear channels.

Now I said before that the power of the amplifier is not equally spread between all the speakers and this is because most of the work of a 5.1 setup is done by the center speaker. If I turn off my front L/R speakers then I can still watch my shows and they sound no worst than listening through the TVs own speakers. This is why I always recommend getting the best center speaker you can and then second priority to the subwoofer. My next upgrade, if I wanted to go further, would be a power amp dedicated to the center speaker as mine is rated at 200Watts. I haven't used my current power amp for the center speaker as teh center is not used for music and so my music would suffer more than my movies would doing it this way.

So from this we can see that;

90Watts per channel does not mean 90 watts per channel with all channels running.

An amp with preouts will enable an upgrade later without replacing the whole amplifier.

Things are never quite as simple as we would all like.

Ok plenty to read there so I will stop before you all loose the will to live .

RB