Prs Not Allowed To Buy Public Housing?

[bepgof 20]

Not sure who you are correcting here but just to clarify, non-residents is incorrect. The figure of 1,305k (not 1,205k) is for non-perm residents and covers students, work pass holders and the like who live in Singapore.

My typo error, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Not sure of the point you seem to be trying to make here and you have of course missed out the most important bit of information.... why would they move to Germany in their old age. What appeals to them which will draw them away from Singapore ?

At times, words best left unspoken. Initially intended to leave blank for PRs & citizens to think, since you mention, let me touch on a few:

- Patriotism. PR-citizen couples always face this and need to make a choice, question is when.

- CPF $ withdrawal. Seem PRs are in better position than citizens.

- Health care at old age - can die cannot fall sick. Children nowadays prefer keeping pets and kick parents aside.

- Retirement age at 65, going to 68 soon, work, work & work till last breath, where's the dignity?

Edited May 13, 2011 by bepgof

[RimBlock 0]

My typo error, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Just clarifying, not diggin'

At times, words best left unspoken. Initially intended to leave blank for PRs & citizens to think, since you mention, let me touch on a few:

- Patriotism. PR-citizen couples always face this and need to make a choice, question is when.

- CPF $ withdrawal. Seem PRs are in better position than citizens.

- Health care at old age - can die cannot fall sick. Children nowadays prefer keeping pets and kick parents aside.

- Retirement age at 65, going to 68 soon, work, work & work till last breath, where's the dignity?

But not here. I am sure there are quite a few people without PR/Citizen friends especially when the PR is from a European country or somewhere like the US or Canada. The insight would have been interesting to hear, even for myself, if it had come from the people you have the meal with.

I can understand the patriotism part and wanting to die in your own country but with PR / Citizen couples it is still a mix and both cannot have it unless there is another move after one passes.

CPF: PRs are the same as citizens as long as they don't have to pay a bond to make sure any citizen children return for NS and as long as the CPF returns the funds in a timely manor. Citizens still have the cash tied up in their properties and their funds for old age. Of course the wild card is not knowing what will happen after the 99 year lease for HDBs expires and if that equity in property will be just wiped out. My wifes CPF is much higher than mine as she has been paying for many more years than me even though my contribution is more.

Healthcare is a big one for me. I have heard stories of families because one member has a disease and the medication is so expensive. I don't want to cause that burden on my family or have to cause them to decide between paying for my medication or leaving me to die.

Retirement: Working all your life so you can enjoy your 'golden years' seems to be slipping away for a lot of people now both here and in the UK. My parents have retired and have a reasonable life but have to be fairly careful financially. Unless you are pretty financially astute, have good savings and investments or are very well off it is pretty hard to be able to enjoy your retirement years the way you envisioned. A scheme like the CPF is good for that as you are forced to save and, yes, as a PR you can get to unlock that money on leaving Singapore but you loose the steady drip feed to sustain you in later life. We (my wife and me), my sister-in-law and my brother-in-law all give money to my wifes parents. They live with my brother and sister in law in an apartment they jointly own. Soon to be having 3 boys, I find it hard to believe they will be doing the same for us. In the West we are taught to be independent and so expect to have to pay for ourselves and not be a burden on our families but I must admit, I do like the support our generation are still giving sometimes to our parents.

RB

[kalimantan 6]

My opinion

1. No banning of PR buying HDB flat. (i mean PR with spouse, not siblings, etc)

2. Should not artifically peg the price for "affordability" to people's income. Because if a day comes when i earn $1k, can i sell my previous hdb and buy another "cheaper" housing ? Affordability should be based on people's income with respect to market conditions. To put bluntly, don't buy something a person cannot afford. Otherwise if "income-affordability" policy starts, the next GE election will say "can i buy pte or land property" at cheaper price as well ? Or worst, some *** in opposition comes with idea "singaporeans can buy cheap in Orchard Road area.

3. Definitely a no-no to bring the price down for the whole population to score a point for opposition parties to satisfy those have not bought it. I am sorry. that is a fact of life, no one should bring down my flat value for political reason. The only justification to reduce flat-value should be of unforeseenable or economic reasons, eg WAR, disaster (flood area i won't buy), global economy financial crisis, market supply, etc

4. As to PR not taking citizenship, i feel it is individual NATURAL choice. The same question can be put forth to singaporeans if dual citizens allow, will you give up singapore citizenship if you are PR of some other countries ? So we should not "attack or bias" PR from our views.

5. Why PR wants to come SG ? Simple : good education, safety, law and orderly society, good governance etc All those intangible benefits are established well by the old guards. If our old guards did not do well, eg gangster, shooting, etc continues, you think PR interested to come to SG with family ?

6. As to some rumours on some PR (very limited i guess) bought a HDB flat and rent out a few room, singaporeans also can do that. It is just that singaporean value more privacy than PR and thus do not wish to rent-out (and singaporeans blame PR for such reason !). I myself also sublet a room out and i know what is privacy value, but i choose to look at money coming in each month :-)

7. Why PR wants to return to home country ? Singaporeans may not known what is the PR host country tax system like. Say i am a US citizen and i work in US AND PAY 30% TAX upfront after getting salary. USA then provide free medical or anything free, etc. Now i come to singapore to work, so naturally i want to "gain back" my tax benefits when retire. What is wrong with PR thinking that way ? So you think Germany is a good place to retire from some stories ? Bring singaporean there for a few days of cold food, and singaporeans definitely wish to fly back the next day ! Singapore is a good food paradise ! I work in German company and all my collegues always complain about the food in Germany, cannot ta-han ! And FYI : MOST Germans want to come to Asia ! Singaporeans should stop admiring people who can retire back to host country with the "wow" factor. BY THE TIME PR grow old, the host country may have changed and singapore could be a relative good place to stay. It depends on the right time, right factor from fengshui point of view.

8. Why must singaporean bother about the wealth of others ? Please accept the fact that no one is born equally. If Bill Gates make his children PR, definitely his children is entitled to buy hdb flat. What has that HDB policy got to do with a person's background wealth ?

9. Is singapore a good place to retire ? YES DEFINITELY ! Why worry about money, when you should start financial planning at young age, and there is a thing called annuity where the objective is to pay you indefinitely when you run out of resources when you live till 100. Don't complain no money and blame govt for high cost of living. Individual should be responsible and take-charge for your own lives. Accept the fact that Singapore is a flat piece of land with no resources and we import everything. So global price up, take it ! Make your own financial returns beat more than inflation ! Sooner or later, other poorer countries also face high cost of living in years to come. There are many poorer and mis-managed countries which has higher inflation than Singapore !

Time now is 1:50am. All above are sleepy thoughts. FYI : I am a singaporean too in the 40s with 2 young kids (not even primary school yet), and i don't whine and whine about life. I am competitive than PR because i willing to accept a lower pay. With lower pay, i manage my finance well and have sufficient properties. I am born in poor family with no inheritance.

[chang2 0]

So what happens to the people how have just had to pay 400k for a 4 room flat. You are happy to wipe out 280k of their equity just like that and basically have them paying a 30 year loan when only the last 10 years will be them paying off the value of their home, the other 20 years will be paying money for nothing ?

Reducing housing prices punishes everyone who bought their apartment above those prices. Thousands of voters would suffer. The only way to avoid this would be to buy up all the HDBs and resell them back at the new price which would cost the government billions. There goes your CPF they have been looking after for you.

Surely a better way would be to offset the price by grants for citizens to allow them to compete more favourably with PRs or others. COVs and peoples greed have contributed greatly to the current transaction prices. We had to pay 50k COV to get our place. Problem is that if the government banned COV then it would just go 'under the table' again.

RB

Look at the big picture..as long as u don't sell u don't lose..it's meant to be your home..not a $$$ making tool.

Think of your next generation..what's the point u make some $$ now but your grandchilren do not have a home? Resale market still subject to market forces, only first time buyer from HDB will get a 4Rm flat At $120K which is affordable.

Don't forget that the higher the price of property = higher rental = higher tax = your decendants end up paying high rental (if can't afford to buy one)

DON'T BE SELFISH!!! Think of the future of your children and beyond....

[bepgof 20]

I am born in poor family with no inheritance too. Bear footed running here & there during childhood time. Squating beside dirty drain having my "chee cheong fun". I experienced the chinese-malay riot. I treasured the present, I deeply understood what LKY has said HK can afford to fail but not singapore. No natural resources but only ppls.

Basically we have great and capable leaders with far visions, only that the 3rd generation leaders suffering from sort of "retardation" in terms of understanding the ground, coordination between the ministries and taking the corrective actions fast enough. Of course, these issues are complex in nature.

I started this thread not intended to discriminate the PRs, but wish to highlight serveral facts (RB has provided the data)

- "foreigner" already hit 36.4% as at end 2010. (pr+non-residen)/(total)

- 1,146k households with average 3.5 persons in one household.

- HDB dwelling =82.4%

- Average income=$7214

- Median income=$5,000

- PRS population, 541K

- Non-resident Po( mobile population)= 1,305k

- Citizen =3,230k

Already slightly exceeded the targetted 33.3%. While moving towards 6.5mil target, gov has yet to do some "controlling" here & there, making sure no "over heated" in certain areas like housing, not to mention the public transport....

So, in my own view, best to keep public house price increase below 5% yoy. Personally "sensed" that gov is likely to do something to PRs, as one of the ways in regulating the price. But how? Remember this :No smoke without fire. Read these carefully:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1079513/1/.html

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1016677/1/.html

http://entertainment.xin.msn.com/en/radio/938live/singaporenews.aspx?cp-documentid=4322891

Edited May 13, 2011 by bepgof

[kalimantan 6]

Look at the big picture..as long as u don't sell u don't lose..it's meant to be your home..not a $$$ making tool.

Think of your next generation..what's the point u make some $$ now but your grandchilren do not have a home? Resale market still subject to market forces, only first time buyer from HDB will get a 4Rm flat At $120K which is affordable.

Don't forget that the higher the price of property = higher rental = higher tax = your decendants end up paying high rental (if can't afford to buy one)

DON'T BE SELFISH!!! Think of the future of your children and beyond....

Sorry i do not get thie point "the higher the price of property = higher rental = higher tax "

higher property price - because owners want to cover mortgage, they want to rental high - that i understand. But if market is no good and high retrenchments, those owners will suffer as well. It depends on the situation when one bought the property.

[bepgof 20]

Easy lah, "high/low" tide theory applies.

High tide - all vessels get lifted up.

Low tide - all go down

During such, some vessels may get capsized and owners of these need to apply "water treading" skill to stay alive lor.

Sorry i do not get thie point "the higher the price of property = higher rental = higher tax "

Edited May 16, 2011 by bepgof

[RimBlock 0]

I am born in poor family with no inheritance too. Bear footed running here & there during childhood time. Squating beside dirty drain having my "chee cheong fun". I experienced the chinese-malay riot. I treasured the present, I deeply understood what LKY has said HK can afford to fail but not Singapore. No natural resources but only ppls.

I must admit that I find it incredible and pretty inspiring to see how quickly Singapore has come from Kampong huts to one of the more advanced countries in Asia. My wife also mentions times for living in huts with the chickens etc running around. Fantastic how a people quality of life can change so drastically in such a short space of time. I do understand what MM LKY said (I believe it was him) concerning the newer generation not having grown up through the hardships endured from Singapore becoming independent up until now. He is obviously generalizing as I am sure some of the younger generation still face hardships but as a whole I can understand how the newer generation is a little 'dislocated' from those times and the whole nationalistic effort put in by all levels of community.

Will take a look at the links later.

(*whisper*)oh and err..... not trying to be picky or anything..... think the stats were up until June 2010 only although I haven't double checked this morning .

One area not covered in the Singapore census is non-resident foreign workers (i.e. workers that commute form JH or the liek every day).

The UK is also going through a census this year and it will be interesting how the figures pan out if some people would actually stop being %$*@($ and fill it in so we could get some accurate information.

RB

[RimBlock 0]

Look at the big picture..as long as u don't sell u don't lose..it's meant to be your home..not a $$$ making tool.

Think of your next generation..what's the point u make some $$ now but your grandchilren do not have a home? Resale market still subject to market forces, only first time buyer from HDB will get a 4Rm flat At $120K which is affordable.

Don't forget that the higher the price of property = higher rental = higher tax = your decendants end up paying high rental (if can't afford to buy one)

DON'T BE SELFISH!!! Think of the future of your children and beyond....

You seem to be confused.

Let me try to make sense of what you appear to be trying to say.

1. If you are paying to service a loan which is now much more than the value of your property you are not loosing money .

2. A property is meant to be a home, for life and you should not consider changing it if you have more children, would be able to move to a better property / condo or another area that better suits your needs. Once you buy a property you should be stuck there until you die .

3. You should not expect to make any money over the purchase price of a property even though inflation rises year on year will make that sum worth less than it was when you bought .

4. Grandchildren will be either extremely dumb and not use the value of your property to either pay off their home loans or step up to a nicer apartment or your children (their parents) will be so selfish as to refuse to help their children get on the property ladder.

5. first time buyers who will generally be newly married childless couples who only require 1 or 2 bedrooms to cover them for a first child should get 3 bedroom apartments at fraction of the price.

6. There should be no resale market as no one should ever move. All new properties should be for fist time buyers only.

7. No one should be able to step up through the property market so they might someday be able to afford a condo.

8. If for some miracle there is a resale market then sellers will be forced to sell to first time buyers at a fraction of their apartments worth to non-first time buyers.

9. You believe that first time buyers will have any sellers willing to sell to them.

10. You believe that the price of housing for a first time buyer (resale or new) should be depressed along with the various grants being available (40k family grant, upto 40k AHG grant + HDB savings + HDB reduced rate loan) meaning that some first time buyers will just get properties handed to them.

11. You feel if people are just handed properties or have very little of their own money invested in the property that they will still value the property as much as someone who has to make a large personal commitment. Take a look at public housing in the UK to see how bad that can turn out.

12. You believe that even though the above go against human nature, any of the above are workable.

Higher prices = higher rents is true. How much higher depends on how greedy the person renting is. Higher rentals = higher taxes.... huh. Rental prices have jumped by around 60% since I moved here. Tax rates have not changed (GST excluded).

My descendants will end up paying high rental. Err yes, they will pay higher rental than I would today. Yes, that is usually the way the world works unless you are living in fantasy land. I pay higher rental than my parents did 20 years ago. Err, sort of obvious really that one. Pay rises and government subsidies are meant to over the increases.

1. If your company does not increase your pay in line then find another job.

2. Not skilled enough then retrain on one of the government schemes.

3. Didn't quite work hard as you could have in school then you only have yourself to blame. Do something about it and move to a number 2.

4. Failing all that, stand up and start blaming everyone else but yourself for your situation whilst doing nothing to improve it.

Just to highlight of course....

A new couple buying a property for around 300k with a family grant would be likely paying under 1k a month between them (500 each if they wished) over 30 years coverable by CPF if their combined income is below 8k per month and give or take CPF savings. The killer is the COV values.

It is of course possible that housing equity will be wiped out when the 99 year lease on most HDB properties is up. That we will have to wait and see on although I would expect that will not be the case.

DON'T BE SELFISH!!! Think of the future of your children and beyond....

So destroying the finances and legacy for almost 4 generations (grandparents, parents, my generation and any legacy for my children) is ok as long as first time buyers can buy cheaper apartments bigger than they require for, in some cases almost free and you have the audacity to call me selfish.

I suggest you rethink your extremely ill thought out proposals before you start labelling anyone else as selfish. That is unless you are a number 4 in which case you are doing your job perfectly.

RB