Gain City - Poor Workmanship

[mae29 2]

Hi, forumers

I am in the midst of renovating my home and snapped several in progress photographs.

Upon scrutinising the photographs which I have taken so far, saw this photograph which had newspapers stained on wall.

Today, went up with my brother-in-law and he told me that my previous air-con installer could have used newspapers to insulate the aircon drainage pipes, instead of using proper insulation!!

This explains why there was bad condensation on trunkings and my aircon broke down frequently in the last 10 years!!!

Lesson learnt - Better keep an eye on the aircon installer. Never know what they are wrapping inside the box!

Edited December 12, 2010 by mae29

[neubie 2]

Hi, forumers

I am in the midst of renovating my home and snapped several in progress photographs.

Upon scrutinising the photographs which I have taken so far, saw this photograph which had newspapers stained on wall.

Today, went up with my brother-in-law and he told me that my previous air-con installer could have used newspapers to insulate the aircon drainage pipes, instead of using proper insulation!!

This explains why there was bad condensation on trunkings and my aircon broke down frequently in the last 10 years!!!

Lesson learnt - Better keep an eye on the aircon installer. Never know what they are wrapping inside the box!

tsk tsk tsk, that's bad workmanship, cutting corners until using SPH papers.... unpardonable....

[Soichiro 0]

Better not announce the company names up like that if you are just guessing that they used newspapers in place of proper insulation. Maybe there was proper insulation but it was further wrapped with newspaper? Or the newspaper stain was there before they even did the pipes?

If you want to confirm, just check with the guys who removed the old trunking.

[edenstrauss 3]

Looks really yukky...

But is it a common practice to stash newspapers inside the trunking??

If it isn't, then those installers are being unprofessional & shoddy with work.

What brand of aircon were u using previously?

(the one that broke down frequently for the past 10 yrs)

Edited December 12, 2010 by edenstrauss

[mae29 2]

Better not announce the company names up like that if you are just guessing that they used newspapers in place of proper insulation. Maybe there was proper insulation but it was further wrapped with newspaper? Or the newspaper stain was there before they even did the pipes?

If you want to confirm, just check with the guys who removed the old trunking.

Confirmed that the newspapers were twisted and wrapped the pipings.......it is very obvious from the picture where old newpapers were used.

[mae29 2]

Looks really yukky...

But is it a common practice to stash newspapers inside the trunking??

If it isn't, then those installers are being unprofessional & shoddy with work.

What brand of aircon were u using previously?

(the one that broke down frequently for the past 10 yrs)

My old aircon brand is 'Carrier system 4'....and I recalled replacing some parts within the 1st month after we moved in.

For past 10 years, I have changed more than 4 compressors!

[edenstrauss 3]

My old aircon brand is 'Carrier system 4'....and I recalled replacing some parts within the 1st month after we moved in.

For past 10 years, I have changed more than 4 compressors!

Wow that is really very very bad quality! It would have cost u alot of $$, if totalled up the amount spent on repairs, I think u could have gotten yourself another brand

But I even thought that Carrier brand was good.

(currently under Toshiba)

So what brand r u intending to purchase for now?

p/s: I wondered if those newspapers were there for some special purpose... But to wrap the pipes in newspapers is so ridiculous! Maybe I'll get my hubby to pry open our trunkings tonight to see if there r newspapers inside...

[countblessings 0]

mae29 Posted Yesterday, 09:35 AM 

  

My old aircon brand is 'Carrier system 4'....and I recalled replacing some parts within the 1st month after we moved in.


For past 10 years, I have changed more than 4 compressors! 


mae29 Posted Yesterday, 09:32 AM 

  

Confirmed that the newspapers were twisted and wrapped the pipings.......it is very obvious from the picture where old newpapers were used.

It is disgusting that such bad work ethics were practised on unsuspecting, trusting customers. Mae29, it is very kind of you to share with us your discovery.

I am renovating my house and will be installing air-con by Imperial Distributors Pte Ltd next week. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the job will be well done and the air-con will not give me troubles in future. I will be installing:

1 set Mitsubishi single split air-con, non-invertor, 30,000BTU, mu-d30vc/ms-d30vc;

1 set Daikin non-invertor system 2 with 2 fancoils of 12,000btu & 9,000btu and

1 set Mitsubishi inverter single split fancoil 12,000btu. R22. (This is the only air-con that will be often used.)

Thus, I will have 3 compressors on a ledge outside my house and 4 fancoils in my house. The air-con were recommended to me by Aron Putt, the company's salesman.

My concerns are as follows:

1. Last week the company's rep (If I remember correctly, his name is Sam.) came to my house for a site survey prior to installation. I will be installing false ceiling for the whole house. The air-con ledge is outside the house and therefore is exposed. All the piping will be concealed. Sam recommended that inside the house, I do NOT use trunking for the insulation and copper pipes. The reason is the insulation and the copper pipes will be squeezed inside the trunking, thus will be compressed. Therefore it is NO GOOD, and ... NO GOOD ...NO GOOD... I can't really remember well what is NO GOOD now. The bottom line is: it is NO GOOD to have trunking inside the house since I have false ceiling.

2. Today, I met up with Aron. He recommended that inside the house, I do NOT use trunking for the insulation and copper pipes. Instead have the insulation and copper pipes hung down from the concrete ceiling by dog chains or metal chains, ie suspended in between the concrete ceiling and the false ceiling. Outside the house, have trunking to the 3 compressors which will be located on a ledge outside the house. The reason given is: outside, in the open, it is cooler. Inside the house, since I have false ceiling, it is hotter above the false ceiling. The gas (If I remember correctly.) running in the copper pipes, from a cooler area (from the condensor outside the house) to a hotter area ( above the false ceiling is hotter) is NO GOOD. There will be water condensation. There will be a higher chance for the air-con to get spoilt. Life span of air-con will be reduced.

2 people give me 2 different reasons for 1 objective.

I am very puzzled.

Could anyone please help to enlighten me?

I looked at the house. The previous owner had trunking all the way from the 3 compressors (located on the ledge outside the house) to the 4 fan coils (inside the house). The trunking was above the false ceiling and the piping were all concealed. It is a 12-year-old house and in fact the air-conditioners are still giving out cold air.

Should I or shoud I not have trunking?

Should I or shoud I not have trunking?

Should I or shoud I not have trunking?

:help:

I will trek the performance of my air-conditioners going forward, and post in Renotalk regularly to share with fellow forumers.

Edited December 13, 2010 by countblessings

[mkl22 0]

mae29 Posted Yesterday, 09:35 AM 

  

My old aircon brand is 'Carrier system 4'....and I recalled replacing some parts within the 1st month after we moved in.


For past 10 years, I have changed more than 4 compressors! 


mae29 Posted Yesterday, 09:32 AM 

  

Confirmed that the newspapers were twisted and wrapped the pipings.......it is very obvious from the picture where old newpapers were used.

It is disgusting that such bad work ethics were practised on unsuspecting, trusting customers. Mae29, it is very kind of you to share with us your discovery.

I am renovating my house and will be installing air-con by Imperial Distributors Pte Ltd next week. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the job will be well done and the air-con will not give me troubles in future. I will be installing:

1 set Mitsubishi single split air-con, non-invertor, 30,000BTU, mu-d30vc/ms-d30vc;

1 set Daikin non-invertor system 2 with 2 fancoils of 12,000btu & 9,000btu and

1 set Mitsubishi inverter single split fancoil 12,000btu. R22. (This is the only air-con that will be often used.)

Thus, I will have 3 compressors on a ledge outside my house and 4 fancoils in my house. The air-con were recommended to me by Aron Putt, the company's salesman.

My concerns are as follows:

1. Last week the company's rep (If I remember correctly, his name is Sam.) came to my house for a site survey prior to installation. I will be installing false ceiling for the whole house. The air-con ledge is outside the house and therefore is exposed. All the piping will be concealed. Sam recommended that inside the house, I do NOT use trunking for the insulation and copper pipes. The reason is the insulation and the copper pipes will be squeezed inside the trunking, thus will be compressed. Therefore it is NO GOOD, and ... NO GOOD ...NO GOOD... I can't really remember well what is NO GOOD now. The bottom line is: it is NO GOOD to have trunking inside the house since I have false ceiling.

2. Today, I met up with Aron. He recommended that inside the house, I do NOT use trunking for the insulation and copper pipes. Instead have the insulation and copper pipes hung down from the concrete ceiling by dog chains or metal chains, ie suspended in between the concrete ceiling and the false ceiling. Outside the house, have trunking to the 3 compressors which will be located on a ledge outside the house. The reason given is: outside, in the open, it is cooler. Inside the house, since I have false ceiling, it is hotter above the false ceiling. The gas (If I remember correctly.) running in the copper pipes, from a cooler area (from the condensor outside the house) to a hotter area ( above the false ceiling is hotter) is NO GOOD. There will be water condensation. There will be a higher chance for the air-con to get spoilt. Life span of air-con will be reduced.

2 people give me 2 different reasons for 1 objective.

I am very puzzled.

Could anyone please help to enlighten me?

I looked at the house. The previous owner had trunking all the way from the 3 compressors (located on the ledge outside the house) to the 4 fan coils (inside the house). The trunking was above the false ceiling and the piping were all concealed. It is a 12-year-old house and in fact the air-conditioners are still giving out cold air.

Should I or shoud I not have trunking?

Should I or shoud I not have trunking?

Should I or shoud I not have trunking?

:help:

I will trek the performance of my air-conditioners going forward, and post in Renotalk regularly to share with fellow forumers.

trunking is just a covering to make the copper pipes with insulation look nicer on the inside of the house. on the exterior they should be used to protect the insulation. inside the house it is much easier to route and bend the pipes if no trunking is used. you will not need to do a sharp 90deg bend in the trunking and this is much better for the pipes if bends are at a wider radius. so hidden in the false ceiling you do not need trunkings, just make sure you get the thickest possible insulation, so as to prevent condensation as you are now no longer bounded by the size of the trunking

[manutd1972 1]

trunking is just a covering to make the copper pipes with insulation look nicer on the inside of the house. on the exterior they should be used to protect the insulation. inside the house it is much easier to route and bend the pipes if no trunking is used. you will not need to do a sharp 90deg bend in the trunking and this is much better for the pipes if bends are at a wider radius. so hidden in the false ceiling you do not need trunkings, just make sure you get the thickest possible insulation, so as to prevent condensation as you are now no longer bounded by the size of the trunking

yea, it wouldn't seem to make sense to hv trunking inside false ceiling. suspending the pipings frm the real ceiling, within the false ceiling shld be good enuf. just ensure tt insulation is properly done wif d correct materials.

of cos, some will be kiasu n insist on enclosing the pipings in a trunking before concealing everything wif d false ceiling. sure, it looks nice and makes one feel safer (ie. shld piping inexplicably burst, still gt trunking to contain the leakage - actually this logic is flawed.), but thr's less ventilation and air tt is trapped within an enclosed space does heat up more. on a warm day, d air temperature in d room may be 28deg, and that which is within the false ceiling will probably be 29-30deg. but the air temperature inside the trunking would be even higher at maybe 32deg or so. this wld definitely cause more condensation on the pipes within the trunking.

imagine a cold piece of metal placed in a refrigerator. do u see any condensation on that piece of metal? no, we wouldn't. take it out of the fridge and place it in room temperature. within seconds we see water droplets forming on its surface. it's the same logic/theory, cos this is science. sorry, no offence meant to anyone. just saying tt the reason for occurrence of condensation under such circumstances is due to a scientific theory.

Edited December 15, 2010 by manutd1972

[RimBlock 0]

A couple of questions.

What was the standard for aircon installs 10 years ago ? Obviously they cannot be compared with current standards.

Why was the news paper that was apparently wrapped around the pipes imprinting on the wall behind the trunking ? Don't see how the paper around the pipes went through the back of the trunking to touch the plaster of the wall unless the trunking had no back to it which would be very strange.

Not trying to stick up for the original installers but people can be quick to point without thinking about it first.

RB

[mae29 2]

A couple of questions.

What was the standard for aircon installs 10 years ago ? Obviously they cannot be compared with current standards.

Why was the news paper that was apparently wrapped around the pipes imprinting on the wall behind the trunking ? Don't see how the paper around the pipes went through the back of the trunking to touch the plaster of the wall unless the trunking had no back to it which would be very strange.

Not trying to stick up for the original installers but people can be quick to point without thinking about it first.

RB

Seeing is believing....I took a closer look at the newspapers and that was dated back in Jun 1999!

and...Look at what they stuffed inside the hollow block wall opening!!

Edited December 15, 2010 by mae29

[mae29 2]

A couple of questions.

What was the standard for aircon installs 10 years ago ? Obviously they cannot be compared with current standards.

Why was the news paper that was apparently wrapped around the pipes imprinting on the wall behind the trunking ? Don't see how the paper around the pipes went through the back of the trunking to touch the plaster of the wall unless the trunking had no back to it which would be very strange.

Not trying to stick up for the original installers but people can be quick to point without thinking about it first.

RB

To add on, those newpapers left behind are the ones stucked with silicon. Others not glued to the silicon gel and were easily removed with PVC pipes.

[neubie 2]

Seeing is believing....I took a closer look at the newspapers and that was dated back in Jun 1999!

and...Look at what they stuffed inside the hollow block wall opening!!

my parents former 4rm oso had rolled newspapers fill up gaps of the aluminum grille.

[RimBlock 0]

Interesting, thanks for the photos.

So how was the piping done ? Were the pipes not in trunking (like the electrical wires are) ?

Filling gaps with newspaper was very common as it will provide a base to be plastered onto and give a acceptable finish for next to no cost.

It is only if you break through the plaster that you would become aware that it is not solid, ie. in your reno.

Not so much of a normal practice now I would imagine with all the different cheap fillers available.

RB