Flooring

[morganwu 0]

Seeing that i went crazy and wrote such a long post, let me revive this thread with some pictures of the project i did today.

Beautiful!

[Christopher 0]

I installed supreme laminate for my 5 rooms hdb flat - total 4 bedrooms with dinning room lately. I did it with my contractor that did my renovation last year and i got their AC5 grade at a special price thru my contractor since i went back to him. My contractor actually used a lot of supreme laminate for his project so he can give me very solid price, and his knowledge is super when i ask him what's the different in european. I will not even consider using any European made product as i am been enlighten by my contractor. His price is **** solid and i got lifetime warranty.

wat!? $3k for 3 rooms? how big are your rooms?

Ehh...$6.80psf for a China-made product versus $4+ to $5psf for a European-made product? Plus, a more established name in the laminates industry? I'm sorry but i won't spend my money this way.

Granted that a lot of things are made in China now. Even big brands have moved their production facilities to China. But these big brands also have a reputation and history to uphold, so their QC standards would also be relatively higher than those Chinese-based made in China goods.

if u have dealt with made in China industrial goods, u will know wat i mean. Given a choice between 2 similar products of similar branding with pricing tt's also quite close to each other, I would definitely buy the one made in Europe vs the one made in China. Case in point: HansGrohe's Focus E2 range versus Grohe's Bau range. HG still made in Germany, while Grohe's is made in China. Both are entry level range and cost roughly the same. I bought HG.

[Dr.Anarchy 0]

morganwu,

very interesting post. A good insight in real wood. Like titanax said, should have know you earlier.

I believe hardwood comes with grade as well. Don't quote me as my knowledge in this area is limited. Indonesian wood may be cheaper but the nicer range comes from Myanmar which can cost a lot more?

I believe the trend locally is more gear towards laminate. Even for those who stays in semi is using laminate rather than hardwood. I don't know why. I'm sure they are in a better position to spend more than me.

My in law's house is using hardwood and after years of using it, it tend to have small dent hole cause by shifting of furniture etc.

[morganwu 0]

Dr.Anarchy,

yup limber come in grades. however the consumer need to understand what the grades really mean.

grading timber is a technical and logical process. we sort the timber into grades A, B and C depending on the number of knots, splits, defects the surface has. however, being grade A doesnt necessary mean you would like the appearance of the timber.

personally i prefer wood that is a little knotty and with some defects on the surface. the knots further accentuate and give the wood character. buying timber for floors is very different from buying timber for furniture. for furniture, you need to consider the structural integrity of the timber, hence u need better grades. however for flooring, you can just go by the looks. there are no structural issues at all. so you can use 'grade B/C' timber and still have a floor that YOU love.

as long as that timber species meet the minimum requirements for it to be used as flooring, it is not necessary for floor installers to compare the physical properties further unless there are very specific needs (e.g commercial use, kitchen use). you can choose them according to your preference. you are right to say that Burmese teak has better physical properties than Indo teak. but some people like the wider grains and lighter color of Indo teak. so nicer or not, its really up to the individual.

for those who stays in semi... you got to ask them why. a few cases that i know of (from same trade), the reasons are because their ID did not suggest real wood to them, and because their ID did not show them what real wood looks like. they are simply not offered the choice. but then, laminates certainly have their advantages too, and price wise there is no comparison. however it is not fair to compare laminates to wood anyway, because they are different materials in the first place. laminates can be made to look like anything. i have seen laminates/vinyl that mimic marble and graphite. but there's just that unnatural look to them.

i am sure your in-law's floor can be renovated. and the floor would look like fantastic, like new. i wouldnt deny that wood requires more care than laminate with regards to shifting furniture around. but hey, its natural. which living thing is perfect?

lets put it this way, wood are like ladies (from my perspective, for ladies its vice-versa), and laminates are like chobits (robots). ladies come with their own set of hassles and problems.

but given the choice and the budget, would you rather spend >5 years with her:

or her?

Edited November 24, 2010 by morganwu

[Dr.Anarchy 0]

I like the youtube videos as comparison

Its so true that most house owners who went to ID firms are not granted the chance to view real wood and do a comparison. The only reason I can think of is most first or second time owners are looking are marble, granite, homogenous tiles instead. It is not so frequent that you see an entire house laid with laminate let alone real wood.

Even when come to buying of furniture, how often do we see the younger generation buying teak wood for their sofa, TV console etc. It is usually the westerners who loves wood. Singapore scene are more towards leather. Seriously, I can't bear to part away 2 to 3K of my money on leather. 2K can get me burmese wood sofa which can last me like 30 years and still looks good! Okay I'm drifting out of the topic.

I do agree real wood need more maintaining than laminate and I feel I will choose real wood when my kid has grown up, no more banging and scratching/drawing on the floor when they are still young and most importantly lesser liability. As we grow older, we should have more cash than we are starting out our first home.

[Christopher 0]

I totally agree with Dr Anarchy,

When i was thinking of what to do for my 4 bedroom floor i consider 3 types, based on my maximum budget of $7K with option to go up to even $10K for specify species of timber since i had been doing research on wood flooring for the past 1 year plus.

1) Laminate floor

2) Engineered Wood

3) Timber Strip

Each has their plus point and and negative point, finally i go for laminate floor.

Reasons being :

1) Timber strip cannot be too wide and long = Warp due to humidity level of our weather (I have liking for long and wide strip which makes the house looks very elegant and posh)

2) Engineer wood is best to have a layer of plywood above my current tile so as to have nice good even up floor, unlike timber strip i can still sand it to make it somewhat even, Using plywood as the base, i am a little skeptical since plywood are best "food" for termite so i get uncomfortable, unless i get better quality plywood which cost much more = come back to same as timber strip pricing.

3) Sanding and varnish of timber strip will make my house unbearable due to the saw dust = Biggest headache since I am staying in..

4) There is a significant height difference between all my bedroom and walkway due to overlay if i will to use either engineered wood or timber strip.

Finally, the only choice and solution point to laminate floor. The height difference is reduce also there is no varnish nor sanding. I need not worry how many days it takes to complete they are relatively wide and long and this is the best part, the amount of money spend is like less than 30% of my allocated budget and i use the rest of the fund for some investment hehee hoping to reap some profits to knock off my flooring. :P

I like the youtube videos as comparison

Its so true that most house owners who went to ID firms are not granted the chance to view real wood and do a comparison. The only reason I can think of is most first or second time owners are looking are marble, granite, homogenous tiles instead. It is not so frequent that you see an entire house laid with laminate let alone real wood.

Even when come to buying of furniture, how often do we see the younger generation buying teak wood for their sofa, TV console etc. It is usually the westerners who loves wood. Singapore scene are more towards leather. Seriously, I can't bear to part away 2 to 3K of my money on leather. 2K can get me burmese wood sofa which can last me like 30 years and still looks good! Okay I'm drifting out of the topic.

I do agree real wood need more maintaining than laminate and I feel I will choose real wood when my kid has grown up, no more banging and scratching/drawing on the floor when they are still young and most importantly lesser liability. As we grow older, we should have more cash than we are starting out our first home.

[everton 0]

Dr.Anarchy,

yup limber come in grades. however the consumer need to understand what the grades really mean.

grading timber is a technical and logical process. we sort the timber into grades A, B and C depending on the number of knots, splits, defects the surface has. however, being grade A doesnt necessary mean you would like the appearance of the timber.

personally i prefer wood that is a little knotty and with some defects on the surface. the knots further accentuate and give the wood character. buying timber for floors is very different from buying timber for furniture. for furniture, you need to consider the structural integrity of the timber, hence u need better grades. however for flooring, you can just go by the looks. there are no structural issues at all. so you can use 'grade B/C' timber and still have a floor that YOU love.

as long as that timber species meet the minimum requirements for it to be used as flooring, it is not necessary for floor installers to compare the physical properties further unless there are very specific needs (e.g commercial use, kitchen use). you can choose them according to your preference. you are right to say that Burmese teak has better physical properties than Indo teak. but some people like the wider grains and lighter color of Indo teak. so nicer or not, its really up to the individual.

for those who stays in semi... you got to ask them why. a few cases that i know of (from same trade), the reasons are because their ID did not suggest real wood to them, and because their ID did not show them what real wood looks like. they are simply not offered the choice. but then, laminates certainly have their advantages too, and price wise there is no comparison. however it is not fair to compare laminates to wood anyway, because they are different materials in the first place. laminates can be made to look like anything. i have seen laminates/vinyl that mimic marble and graphite. but there's just that unnatural look to them.

i am sure your in-law's floor can be renovated. and the floor would look like fantastic, like new. i wouldnt deny that wood requires more care than laminate with regards to shifting furniture around. but hey, its natural. which living thing is perfect?

lets put it this way, wood are like ladies (from my perspective, for ladies its vice-versa), and laminates are like chobits (robots). ladies come with their own set of hassles and problems.

but given the choice would you rather spend >5 years with her:

or her?

Hi Morgan,

can you tell me anything about engineered wood. From what little I understand it uses a wood veneer surface over plywood. I also understand it can be overlayed on existing homogenous tiles just like laminate flooring. I've already moved into my home and don't want to have to hack out the existing flooring. Can timber wood be overlayed on an existing floor? Is it advisable? Am not crazy about installing laminate wood flooring. Tried pergo in my first home about 17 years ago when it was just introduced in Singapore and wasn't very impressed. I know laminates have come far since then but I really don't like the spongy feel of it.

[Christopher 0]

Hi,

I did some studies on this cause I was almost on the verge of getting engineered wood done for my house. Effectively its a layer of solid wood over plywood, the thicker it is the better the top layer is, of course it can give you good wood feeling but I didn't choose it cause my house tiles is not so level and requires a layer of plywood as the base, which in the end makes my floor much higher, I chosen a 15mm thick engineered wood oak species + another 12mm plywood = 27mm higher than my walkway between bedroom and living room, that's really crazy. However, it is possible to sand and re-varnish the top layer 2 to 3 times like timber strip or parquet as each sanding takes away 0.5mm so for thick solid timber strip after 3 times it will sand down to the tongue and grove which will creates a V grove between each plank and it's time to say bye bye cause they cannot hold on to each other. If i am not staying in i will hack the whole floor and get engineered wood done. Just too bad, I didn't did it when I was renovating my house. :(

Hi Morgan,

can you tell me anything about engineered wood. From what little I understand it uses a wood veneer surface over plywood. I also understand it can be overlayed on existing homogenous tiles just like laminate flooring. I've already moved into my home and don't want to have to hack out the existing flooring. Can timber wood be overlayed on an existing floor? Is it advisable? Am not crazy about installing laminate wood flooring. Tried pergo in my first home about 17 years ago when it was just introduced in Singapore and wasn't very impressed. I know laminates have come far since then but I really don't like the spongy feel of it.

[everton 0]

Hi,

I did some studies on this cause I was almost on the verge of getting engineered wood done for my house. Effectively its a layer of solid wood over plywood, the thicker it is the better the top layer is, of course it can give you good wood feeling but I didn't choose it cause my house tiles is not so level and requires a layer of plywood as the base, which in the end makes my floor much higher, I chosen a 15mm thick engineered wood oak species + another 12mm plywood = 27mm higher than my walkway between bedroom and living room, that's really crazy. However, it is possible to sand and re-varnish the top layer 2 to 3 times like timber strip or parquet as each sanding takes away 0.5mm so for thick solid timber strip after 3 times it will sand down to the tongue and grove which will creates a V grove between each plank and it's time to say bye bye cause they cannot hold on to each other. If i am not staying in i will hack the whole floor and get engineered wood done. Just too bad, I didn't did it when I was renovating my house. :(

thanks Christopher. so you left your floor intact then and didn't overlay anything? Might a solution(albeit one that would add to your cost) be to overlay Engineered wood in the bedrooms as well which would then effectively raise all rooms equally? Thanks

[morganwu 0]

hello everton,

yes engineered floors are wood veneers glued onto a plywood base. they usually come pre-coated in the factory. hence there is no need to sand the floor after installation. but the resultant floor would not be smoothly flat. there would be gloves on the surface of the floor. kino in ngee ann city uses engineered floor, you may go there to have a look.

engineered floors can be installed in many ways, depends on the user's need.

1. as a 'floating' floor like laminates. the engineered floors are clicked to each other and laid on a layer of foam. not glued to the floor. can be overlaid on existing floors.

2. glued to a plywood base that is first laid on the existing floor. this method makes the floor very hard to remove, which contradicts one of engineered flooring's advantage, which is the ability to retain the look of natural wood but with the convenience of laminates.

3. glued to a plywood base that is first laid on the floor, then sanded, then coated. this method treats the engineered floor like solid timber floors. only makes sense to implement this method on rare, expensive timbers or big planks.

method 1 is the most suitable for your case. however you dont like the spongy feeling of laminates? this spongy feeling probably comes from the foam beneath the laminate. hence you may not like the feel of the engineered floor installed using method 1. however engineered floors are stiffer than laminates, which mitigates some of this sponginess. you should try it out in a showroom first before deciding.

timber wood, as in solid timber flooring? solid timber flooring also can be laid and glued on existing floors. however you can only do this for small parquet. not recommended for long strips. small parquet pieces can follow the unevenness of the existing floor. long strips does not follow the existing floor. hence long strips may feel hollow in the places where it is not touching the existing floor.

Hi Morgan,

can you tell me anything about engineered wood. From what little I understand it uses a wood veneer surface over plywood. I also understand it can be overlayed on existing homogenous tiles just like laminate flooring. I've already moved into my home and don't want to have to hack out the existing flooring. Can timber wood be overlayed on an existing floor? Is it advisable? Am not crazy about installing laminate wood flooring. Tried pergo in my first home about 17 years ago when it was just introduced in Singapore and wasn't very impressed. I know laminates have come far since then but I really don't like the spongy feel of it.

i think the main obstacle to raise the whole floor equally is not that of christoper's budget, but because he is already living in the house. if he is not already living in the house he would probably hack out the old tiles.

if you are not already living in your house, and you do not wish to hack out your old tiles, your suggestion would work nicely. (you would need to make modifications to your doors though.)

thanks Christopher. so you left your floor intact then and didn't overlay anything? Might a solution(albeit one that would add to your cost) be to overlay Engineered wood in the bedrooms as well which would then effectively raise all rooms equally? Thanks

Edited November 24, 2010 by morganwu

[Dr.Anarchy 0]

This thread will serve as a good reference guide for future home owners to decide whether what kind of flooring they want beside using tiles. Pretty comprehensive. We have a good post on laminates now we have a good one on real wood

[everton 0]

hello everton,

yes engineered floors are wood veneers glued onto a plywood base. they usually come pre-coated in the factory. hence there is not need to sand the floor after installation. but the resultant floor would not be smoothly flat. there would be gloves on the surface of the floor. kino in ngee ann city uses engineered floor, you may go there to have a look.

engineered floors can be installed in many ways, depends on the user's need.

1. as a 'floating' floor like laminates. the engineered floors are clicked to each other and laid on a layer of foam. not glued to the floor. can be overlaid on existing floors.

2. glued to a plywood base that is first laid on the existing floor. this method makes the floor very hard to remove, which contradicts one of engineered flooring's advantage, which is the ability to retain the look of natural wood but with the convenience of laminates.

3. glued to a plywood base that is first laid on the floor, then sanded, then coated. this method treats the engineered floor like solid timber floors. only makes sense to implement this method on rare, expensive timbers or big planks.

method 1 is the most suitable for your case. however you dont like the spongy feeling of laminates? this spongy feeling probably comes from the foam beneath the laminate. hence you may not like the feel of the engineered floor installed using method 1. however engineered floors are stiffer than laminates, which mitigates some of this sponginess. you should try it out in a showroom first before deciding.

timber wood, as in solid timber flooring? solid timber flooring also can be laid and glued on existing floors. however you can only do this for small parquet. not recommended for long strips. small parquet pieces can follow the unevenness of the existing floor. long strips does not follow the existing floor. hence long strips may feel hollow in the places where it is not touching the existing floor.

i think the main obstacle to raise the whole floor equally is not that of christoper's budget, but because he is already living in the house. if he is not already living in the house he would probably hack out the old tiles.

if you are not already living in your house, and you do not wish to hack out your old tiles, your suggestion would work nicely. (you would need to make modifications to your doors though.)

Thanks Morgan. The information is very helpful.

[Christopher 0]

i think the main obstacle to raise the whole floor equally is not that of christoper's budget, but because he is already living in the house. if he is not already living in the house he would probably hack out the old tiles.

if you are not already living in your house, and you do not wish to hack out your old tiles, your suggestion would work nicely. (you would need to make modifications to your doors though.)

BINGO!! It's so troublesome to do flooring when you are already stay-in. Even doing laminate is also dusty and dirty, the after-match clean like mad!! regret not doing it during my reno as i wanted to move in fast simply because i sold my place before buying.

[neubie 2]

we have an in-house expert on floorings, helps pple to make a better informed purchase....

[Esther192 0]

hello everton,

yes engineered floors are wood veneers glued onto a plywood base. they usually come pre-coated in the factory. hence there is no need to sand the floor after installation. but the resultant floor would not be smoothly flat. there would be gloves on the surface of the floor. kino in ngee ann city uses engineered floor, you may go there to have a look.

engineered floors can be installed in many ways, depends on the user's need.

1. as a 'floating' floor like laminates. the engineered floors are clicked to each other and laid on a layer of foam. not glued to the floor. can be overlaid on existing floors.

2. glued to a plywood base that is first laid on the existing floor. this method makes the floor very hard to remove, which contradicts one of engineered flooring's advantage, which is the ability to retain the look of natural wood but with the convenience of laminates.

3. glued to a plywood base that is first laid on the floor, then sanded, then coated. this method treats the engineered floor like solid timber floors. only makes sense to implement this method on rare, expensive timbers or big planks.

method 1 is the most suitable for your case. however you dont like the spongy feeling of laminates? this spongy feeling probably comes from the foam beneath the laminate. hence you may not like the feel of the engineered floor installed using method 1. however engineered floors are stiffer than laminates, which mitigates some of this sponginess. you should try it out in a showroom first before deciding.

timber wood, as in solid timber flooring? solid timber flooring also can be laid and glued on existing floors. however you can only do this for small parquet. not recommended for long strips. small parquet pieces can follow the unevenness of the existing floor. long strips does not follow the existing floor. hence long strips may feel hollow in the places where it is not touching the existing floor.

i think the main obstacle to raise the whole floor equally is not that of christoper's budget, but because he is already living in the house. if he is not already living in the house he would probably hack out the old tiles.

if you are not already living in your house, and you do not wish to hack out your old tiles, your suggestion would work nicely. (you would need to make modifications to your doors though.)

Hi morgan,

Need your advise on my bedroom flooring... not sure what it is made of but on the valuation report was stated as wooden stripe:

would you be able to tell from the photo? I'm also seeking trustworthy people who can do a good and reasonable varnish for the 2 bedrooms, would you be able to recommend?

Thanks!

Edited December 5, 2010 by Esther192