Water Leaking In My Bathroom Wall

[blueCrystal 1]

One the corners of the wall between my bedroom and bathroom has water leakage. The plumber hacked part of the wall that exposes the copper pipes of hot and cold water. It also exposes a white PVC pipe that is connected to the T & P valve of a water heater in the bathroom ceiling (see the attached image) that is used for discharge of overflow water from water heater. The copper pipes turn 90 degree to the left.

The PVC pipe goes down to the bottom of the corner of the wall. The leakage is around the corner of the bottom two sides of the wall and the bedroom floor.

The plumber insists that the water is from the two copper pipes. But after hacking the wall that exposed the pipes, the pipes are very dry on the exposed part. He said that if there is leakage, the water will drip down from the pipes, but there is no water dripping after waiting for two days. But he still wants to carry out the work to cut the copper pipes, hack the wall to the top of the ceiling and build a new pair to connect to the top part of the pipes in the ceiling.

I have called another plumbers, they did a quick check and said, PVC pipe cannot be leaking, water heater has no problem. They want to cut all the pipes and build new sets that are exposed inside the bathroom.

I am wondering if all this is caused due to water heater overflow. Because, when first time the leaking happened, it has huge amount of water fill the floor of the bathroom near the corner of the PVC pipe after we shower. This happened three times, but now it is gone. If it is copper pipe leaking, it shouldn't have such huge amount of water gushing out.

My question is:

[1]. How does discharge pipe ends? Does it normally end in the main drainage in the bathroom or it simply end at the the corner of the wall such that when overflow water goes to the pipe, it goes to the floor of the bathroom?

I am worried if the problem lays in the PVC pipe, it can be done with changing water heater or fixed the water heater overflow problem instead of hacking the wall and build new sets of pipes.

Looking forward to hearing any suggestions!

Edited October 7, 2010 by blueCrystal

[blueCrystal 1]

Hi,

I hope someone can shed some light for me for what the possible causes.

The plumbers are asking for $2500 to rewire pipes and the worse thing is that the pipes will be exposed in the bathroom wall.

They refuse to think about the possibility due to water heater problem. My water heater is Ariston 5 years old.

Edited October 7, 2010 by blueCrystal

[maintenance boy 0]

Hi can you try to snap the exact location of where the wall is hacked and the wet surface so we might get a clearer picture?Is the floor keeps getting wet even after you wipe it?or the wall surface is always damp? If its not, hold on.... can be not from your copper pipe.....

[Warrior88 0]

The plumber is right, I had this problem before. If leaks from the PVC, you will only see patches of water trace marks. PVC is dripping water, but for copper, you see pool of water. What you can do is trouble shooting. Start troubleshooting. First, turn off the water heater outlet, of course you can still use the cold water. Check leakage the next day. Assuming there is still leakage the next day, then it must be the PVC cold water outlet.

Mine was the leak in the hot water outlet.

I knew hacking cost would be horrendous. Thus, I get the plumber to cut the conceal pipe from the ceiling to do anther direct pipe to my shower mixer. Exposed only from the ceiling to my mixer. Cost me $180 for stainless steel pipe installation.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Warrior88

[blueCrystal 1]

Hi can you try to snap the exact location of where the wall is hacked and the wet surface so we might get a clearer picture?Is the floor keeps getting wet even after you wipe it?or the wall surface is always damp? If its not, hold on.... can be not from your copper pipe.....

Hi,

Thank you for your reply!

I wonder if you can see from the picture I attached. The hacked wall is marked by green line.

This is the photo before hacking:

Initially, the lower part of the wall surface and the floor is very wet, we need to wipe out water constantly. There were three times, the bathroom floor around the corner had water gushing out. But after few days. The floor is no longer wet, only the lower part of the wall in the two sides of the corner of the wall are wet. The gushing water has never happened again.

In one side of the wall, where the copper pipes and the PVC pipe are berried, the wet surface is like a curve marked by green line. In the another side of the wall around corner, the wet is a bit straight line.

Edited October 8, 2010 by blueCrystal

[blueCrystal 1]

The plumber is right, I had this problem before. If leaks from the PVC, you will only see patches of water trace marks. PVC is dripping water, but for PVC, you see pool of water. What you can do is trouble shooting. Start troubleshooting. First, turn off the water heater outlet, of course you can still use the cold water. Check leakage the next day. Assuming there is still leakage the next day, then it must be the PVC cold water outlet.

Mine was the leak in the hot water outlet.

I knew hacking cost would be horrendous. Thus, I get the plumber to cut the conceal pipe from the ceiling to do anther direct pipe to my shower mixer. Exposed only from the ceiling to my mixer. Cost me $180 for stainless steel pipe installation.

Hi Warrior88,

Thank you very much for your reply? Can you explain "If leaks from the PVC, you will only see patches of water trace marks. PVC is dripping water, but for PVC, you see pool of water". Do you mix PVC and copper pipe somewhere here?

I guess you mean the last PVC the copper pipes.

In the corner of the wall, one side has copper pipe and PVC pipes berried parallelly. The copper pipe didn't go down to the bottom of the wall, but turn 90 degree to the left part of the wall. The PVC pipe goes down to the wall. We didn't hack the bottom part of the wall, thus we don't know how far the PVC pipe goes.

I turn off the water heater outlet these days. The wall is still wet in the lower part of the wall where the pipes (copper pipes and PVC pipe) are berried. But int he other side of the wall, it gets much drier.

[Warrior88 0]

Oops...I edit to copper liao ....

Copper, got 2, (cold /hot) both with water pressure cause pool of water. Copper goes to both shower/wash basin. Thus not underneath the floor.

PVC, for condense water drainage, no pressure. Goes underneath your floor to you drain hole.

When I say turn off the water heater outlet, (Not the one you use for shower)

There should be a on/off valve up you ceiling both for the hot and cold water. If you need to change heater, they will off this 2 valve.

Actually, you should save money, just direct new stainless steel pipes from your ceiling to the mixer.

By the way, you still wanna conceal, no point tracing the leakage. Even you repair this point. It might appear somewhere again. Perhaps, you should just install new conceal pipe from your ceiling direct to your mixer... Haiz.... spend so much money.. must repair wall and tile up also ....

This plumber... see you stay private... just come and whack you right. says if hack more wall, charge more ...

Oh... if you have built in cupboard behind that wall or your parquet floor may be infested by termites........ okay lah dont scare you

[blueCrystal 1]

Oops...I edit to copper liao ....

Copper, got 2, (cold /hot) both with water pressure cause pool of water. Copper goes to both shower/wash basin. Thus not underneath the floor.

PVC, for condense water drainage, no pressure. Goes underneath your floor to you drain hole.

When I say turn off the water heater outlet, (Not the one you use for shower)

There should be a on/off valve up you ceiling both for the hot and cold water. If you need to change heater, they will off this 2 valve.

Actually, you should save money, just direct new stainless steel pipes from your ceiling to the mixer.

By the way, you still wanna conceal, no point tracing the leakage. Even you repair this point. It might appear somewhere again. Perhaps, you should just install new conceal pipe from your ceiling direct to your mixer... Haiz.... spend so much money.. must repair wall and tile up also ....

This plumber... see you stay private... just come and whack you right. says if hack more wall, charge more ...

Oh... if you have built in cupboard behind that wall or your parquet floor may be infested by termites........ okay lah dont scare you

Hi Warrior88,

I turned off the cold water inlet to the water heater in the ceiling that near the water heater. My problem is that if it is the water heater overflow problem, even if I install new conceal pipe to mixer, the PVC pipe still will be overflow with water and the wall is still wet. But you are saying the PVC goes to the main drain hole.

I just wondering, if PVC pipe really goes to the floor drain hole. If this is the case, when your water heater has problem and the water is overflow to your PVC pipe, you will never notice it. Should it be better that it is terminated some where in the wall so that when there is overflow problem in the water heater, the wall will be wet and you will know that the water heater need to be fixed?

[Warrior88 0]

Need not worry about the PVC pipe. This is not a problem They don't break so easily.

Most of the time only worry about choking problem. Clear your mid off the PVC problem...

you only need gravity for the overflow to drip down into the drainage pipe, so you can either just allow the overflow to drip onto the yard floor or make a pvc tube from the cut-off valve to the drainage pipe on the yard floor. The overflow is quite negligible, so you don't really need to install a pipe. , the overflow is caused by the expanding water when it is heated up, and is expelled through the cut-off valve on the cold water pipe.

Just imagine this PVC like the one you use in air con .... they don't cause pool of water

You will find fungi like on your wall only if the PVC pipe really leaks.

Open drainage hole, you will find your PVC there sticking out. If really there is a lot of excess water, you can see em thorugh here with those gurgling sound. Just like the drainage hose from your washing machine to the drainage pipe.

[blueCrystal 1]

Need not worry about the PVC pipe. This is not a problem They don't break so easily.

Most of the time only worry about choking problem. Clear your mid off the PVC problem...

you only need gravity for the overflow to drip down into the drainage pipe, so you can either just allow the overflow to drip onto the yard floor or make a pvc tube from the cut-off valve to the drainage pipe on the yard floor. The overflow is quite negligible, so you don't really need to install a pipe. , the overflow is caused by the expanding water when it is heated up, and is expelled through the cut-off valve on the cold water pipe.

Just imagine this PVC like the one you use in air con .... they don't cause pool of water

You will find fungi like on your wall only if the PVC pipe really leaks.

Open drainage hole, you will find your PVC there sticking out. If really there is a lot of excess water, you can see em thorugh here with those gurgling sound. Just like the drainage hose from your washing machine to the drainage pipe.

Hi Warrior88,

I just found a document about how to terminate a PVC discharge pipe. I asked many people, they all told me that it should go to the drain hole. But it is not the case after I read the following. I think it is a pretty good information for us to understand how the PVC drain is build in a house.

http://www.dallascityhall.com/pdf/Building...rgePanDrain.pdf

"The outlet of a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof, shall not be directly connected to the drainage system. The discharge from the relief valve shall be piped full size separately to the floor, to the outside of the building or to an indirect waste receptor located inside the building. The discharge shall be installed in a manner that does not cause personal injury or property damage and that is readily observable by the building occupants."

And some from the forums:

"The instructions that came with the water heater says to leave a 6" air

gap between the temperature and pressure pipe and the floor drain."

"Be aware that, if the T&P valve should ever be called on to do what it is

intended to do, what comes out of the pipe is a tremendous blast of boiling

water and steam. Whether it goes into the pan first or directly on the floor

would not matter much. The six inches is intended to ensure that the heater

be vented as rapidly and safely as possible, and also to minimize any

possibility that the water in the heater could ever be contaminated by drain

or ground water."

Edited October 8, 2010 by blueCrystal

[Warrior88 0]

Hi BlueCrystal,

Are you a foreigner ? I assume so, cos in Singapore, we do things only 2 ways for apartment. Drainage pipe to drainage hole either expose or conceal. Drainage pipe not allow to go outside the building.

If yours is landed you may choose to do so outside your house to the drain. Cool

[blueCrystal 1]

Hi BlueCrystal,

Are you a foreigner ? I assume so, cos in Singapore, we do things only 2 ways for apartment. Drainage pipe to drainage hole either expose or conceal. Drainage pipe not allow to go outside the building.

If yours is landed you may choose to do so outside your house to the drain. Cool

Hi Warrior88,

Yes, the drainage pipe is not going outside the building.

For most water heaters they are are installed on the floor of a bathroom, the PVC discharge pipe is simply lay in the bathroom floor I think. That's why sometime, you discover a pool of water from the discharge pipe in your bathroom floor. I don't think the discharge pipe is end to the drainage hole. In this case you will never find your water heater has problem in the T & P valve.

But in my case, the water heater is installed in the ceiling and the PVC discharge pipe is buried in the wall. If the discharge pipe cannot go to drainage, it must be opened inside the wall. When water heater has problem, the wall is wet.

I hope it makes sense. Because if this make sense, it explains why there is sudden gushing of water around the PVC discharge pipe sometime.

Thanks!

[Warrior88 0]

"I don't think the discharge pipe is end to the drainage hole. In this case you will never find your water heater has problem in the T & P valve"

You don't trouble shoot T&P problem by the PVC pipe. If T&P fail, basically your water is not hot or is trickling in small drips.

PVC pipe is to drain excess water, thats all.

Okay, lets get this straight, Copper = close end (pressure) , PVC open end (only gravity)

PVC(without pressure) will not cause water to seep through walls. You need some pressure for the water to seep through walls.

Open you floor drainage hole, the PVC pipe is IN THERE!

The gushing sound are the other PVC pipes from your wash basin.

Like I say, it is the Copper not the PVCs....

[blueCrystal 1]

"I don't think the discharge pipe is end to the drainage hole. In this case you will never find your water heater has problem in the T & P valve"

You don't trouble shoot T&P problem by the PVC pipe. If T&P fail, basically your water is not hot or is trickling in small drips.

PVC pipe is to drain excess water, thats all.

Okay, lets get this straight, Copper = close end (pressure) , PVC open end (only gravity)

PVC(without pressure) will not cause water to seep through walls. You need some pressure for the water to seep through walls.

Open you floor drainage hole, the PVC pipe is IN THERE!

The gushing sound are the other PVC pipes from your wash basin.

Like I say, it is the Copper not the PVCs....

Hi Warrior88,

Another support that T & P discharge PVC pipe should not go into drain hole.

"Once siphoning occurs, the liquid (be it dirty water, household chemicals, oil, etc.) will be drawn back into the water heater tank, thereby contaminating the household drinking water supply".

If PVC discharge pipe terminate at the drain hole, if your drain hole is choked and full with dirty water, your water heater tank will be contaminated.

About the T &P valve:

"A safety device called a temperature and pressure relief (T&P or TPR) valve, is normally fitted on the top of the water heater to dump water if the temperature or pressure becomes too high."

Thus, if there is water coming out of the T & P discharge PVC pipe, there is problem with the water heater (You are right, it may not be in the T & P valve). It is either in too high pressure or too high temperature that your water heater generates. Another possibility is that the T & P valve is spoil (loose or damaged).

If the discharge PVC pipe terminates near the wall and filled with gushing water from the water tank due to too high pressure or temperature, the wall will be wet, isn't it even if there is no pressure? If there is water continuously dripping from the PVC pipe near wall, the wall near it will be wet isn't it?

Thanks!

Edited October 8, 2010 by blueCrystal

[bepgof 20]

BS,

1. The "valve" hidden above false ceiling, is called "stop-cock".

2. T&P discharge pipe for only for water, but "pressurised air" (heater container needs to be sealed, air-tight, to prevent heat loss)as well - pressure created when tap water flow in or hot water flow out from heater container/reservoir.

3. From symptoms described, very likely to the the CU pipe's problem.

3-1. Even stop cock is on (all the way on, off only when maintenance done to heater reservoir) and mixer valve off, water will flow contineous fron the CU pipes (if there is a leak)

3-2 Cu pipie cannot bend 90 deg lah, need Rxx

3-3 Believed the leak in CU pipes should be at the 90 deg bend, see with magnify glass.

Edited October 8, 2010 by bepgof