Reno @my Simei 4a Resale Flat

[fencer 0]

Hi Fencer,

Sorry to K-Po here. I just grab out my HDB first appointment letter which titled "First Appointment of Sale & Purchase of Flat" and found out on 4th clause, it is stated when the HDB TO to do the inspection. And the next clause is even more interesting. I will type it out here

"The seller must regularis/remove any unauthorised renovation works found in the resale flat before the completion of the resale transaction. As a buyer, you are purchasing the flat on a caveat amptar basis which means that it is your responsibility to check the condition of the resale flat and satisfy yourself that all renovation works carried out by the seller are authorised and comply with the requirements imposed by HDB or other competent authorities. The buyer will also be responsible for any irregularity, including any unauthorised renovation works carried out by the seller in the resale flat, which maybe subsequently be discovered. The buyer is advised to engage a Qualified person at his own expense to help him in the checking."

So, I think it is a MUST a buyer to attend this inspection. I believe alot of people will overlook this as I did but luckily, I got a good agent who remind me on this. He told me this is the GOLDEN CHANCE for you to fire back the seller on all the things you are not happy with! hahaha.....So, I went to this inspection, complaining this and complaining that, and the TO just put a note there which he think my complains are valid as well. Well, I think to play safe, it is always good to ask some one qualified to do this inspection with you as well like what HDB advised in clause 5!

Hmm.. I was not informed abt this leh.. Yah.. was my fault for not reading all the prints.. plus bad agent..

sigh.. suay.. tink this flat need to ask some1 to come pray liao.. Ha... got any1 to recommend? HA..

Dun tink is a must, more on a strongly recommended basis.. or else sure have somewhere for the buyer to sign to acknowledge.. If agent had said so, would have gone along and also can know what the HDB officer checked also.. but too late.. HA..

Any1 reads all the fine prints of the clauses on credit cards? Ha... 1 colleague did though..

Thanks reuben82.. i'll rem this if i buy another flat.. Ha.. and good information for others also leh..

[blueocean 0]

The principle of "caveat emptor" or "let the buyer beware" applies to both HDB and private properties. Once the strata title is passed on to the buyer on completion of the 2nd appointment, the buyer becomes the new legal owner. The new legal owner becomes responsible for any illegal structure. Although this is stated explicitly in HDB's OTP, the same legal principle underlies the sale of any private property too. eg if you buy a landed property or condo with a illegal roof structure and did not ask the previous owner to remove it, URA will require you to remove or demolish it at your own expense if they happen to conduct checks. Note that when you buy a resale property, the seller is not obliged to tell you every single defect but he cannot misrepresent or intentionally hide the defects.

Having said all these, it still does not discharge the responsibility of the contractor for taking reasonable care and effort to ascertain that the door meets the requirements and cannot simply replace 1 to 1 as he has been contracted under a "design" and then "build" contract. The minimum standard would have been to advise the consumer, before commencement of the renovation, to check with HDB if the doors met the requirement of HDB regulations.

Similarly, if the new additional electrical wiring that has been contracted to be done fails the HDB inspection (using form CS/5H), the contractor is also required to make good as he is also responsible for the electrical design. Most ID firms will not quote you with the electrical works although they would recommend someone that works with them. The consumer can choose either to pay to the ID firm or the electrician directly to save on GST. If you decide to pay directly to the electrician, it would have been deemed that you had separately sub-contracted the electrician and the main contractor will no longer be responsible for the electrical design but the electrician itself. But in a way, having a bill done up separately does help in resolving it through SCT because the contract value becomes smaller and can enforce a claim to the electrican directly

Some consumers don't arrange the electrical inspection. But the problem arises when they sell the flat or if a electrical fire starts damaging yours +/- neighbour's property ... Of course the electrician would always cross their fingers that you dont arrange any inspection cos if any problem arises a few years later or when you sell the flat, they wont be around any more ...

If however, the consumer had instead hired separate sub-contractors himself and therefore assumed the "design" responsibility for directing the ceiling, flooring, door works the consumer would then have been responsible himself to check with HDB regarding its regulations.

Hmm.. I was not informed abt this leh.. Yah.. was my fault for not reading all the prints.. plus bad agent..

sigh.. suay.. tink this flat need to ask some1 to come pray liao.. Ha... got any1 to recommend? HA..

Dun tink is a must, more on a strongly recommended basis.. or else sure have somewhere for the buyer to sign to acknowledge.. If agent had said so, would have gone along and also can know what the HDB officer checked also.. but too late.. HA..

Any1 reads all the fine prints of the clauses on credit cards? Ha... 1 colleague did though..

Thanks reuben82.. i'll rem this if i buy another flat.. Ha.. and good information for others also leh..

Edited May 19, 2010 by blueocean

[fencer 0]

The principle of "caveat emptor" or "let the buyer beware" applies to both HDB and private properties. Once the strata title is passed on to the buyer on completion of the 2nd appointment, the buyer becomes the new legal owner. The new legal owner becomes responsible for any illegal structure. Although this is stated explicitly in HDB's OTP, the same legal principle underlies the sale of any private property too. eg if you buy a landed property or condo with a illegal roof structure and did not ask the previous owner to remove it, URA will require you to remove or demolish it at your own expense if they happen to conduct checks. Note that when you buy a resale property, the seller is not obliged to tell you every single defect but he cannot misrepresent or intentionally hide the defects.

Having said all these, it still does not discharge the responsibility of the contractor for taking reasonable care and effort to ascertain that the door meets the requirements and cannot simply replace 1 to 1 as he has been contracted under a "design" and then "build" contract. The minimum standard would have been to advise the consumer, before commencement of the renovation, to check with HDB if the doors met the requirement of HDB regulations.

Similarly, if the new additional electrical wiring that has been contracted to be done fails the HDB inspection (using form CS/5H), the contractor is also required to make good as he is also responsible for the electrical design. Most ID firms will not quote you with the electrical works although they would recommend someone that works with them. The consumer can choose either to pay to the ID firm or the electrician directly to save on GST. If you decide to pay directly to the electrician, it would have been deemed that you had separately sub-contracted the electrician and the main contractor will no longer be responsible for the electrical design but the electrician itself. But in a way, having a bill done up separately does help in resolving it through SCT because the contract value becomes smaller and can enforce a claim to the electrican directly

Some consumers don't arrange the electrical inspection. But the problem arises when they sell the flat or if a electrical fire starts damaging yours +/- neighbour's property ... Of course the electrician would always cross their fingers that you dont arrange any inspection cos if any problem arises a few years later or when you sell the flat, they wont be around any more ...

If however, the consumer had instead hired separate sub-contractors himself and therefore assumed the "design" responsibility for directing the ceiling, flooring, door works the consumer would then have been responsible himself to check with HDB regarding its regulations.

Hi blueocean, is electrical inspection on the checklist for the HDB officer when he/she comes to inspect the hse during resale? Or is a recommended procedure to buyer?

Hmm.. seems like i'm now directly responsible for the electrical rewiring loh.. no 1 told me i would be responsible if i liase/pay directly with electrician..

Wonder if Henry knows abt this when he asked me to liase directly with Ah liang.. And no, Simon, i do not mean Henry purposely did that.. it may have just slipped his mind about this matter..

So future reno buddies.. pls note loh.. make sure is all in the contract..

yes.. i shld hv find out abt electrical work also..

Hmmm.. but then, if i'm as knowledgable as a contractor.. why am i paying for a contractor to do my work leh.. tot of the day..

[blueocean 0]

For the electrical re-wiring, you can claim against the electrician directly because of the way you pay.

It is very clear. Unless you had instructed the electrician specifically that it should be done in a certain way and despite his advice, you wanted it done that way, then it is not unreasonable to make a claim. As a consumer, you had relied on the reasonable expertise and skills of the electrician to do the works that is fit for use and conforms to HDB regulation.

Anyway, the Small Claims Tribunal offers the man on the street easy access to the judicial system. It is only $10 or $20 administrative fee depending on contract amount. No need to hire lawyers. They now offer night sessions too. The only downside is giving up time to go to Chinatown area and URA parking there is hard to find ! It is a bit like a polyclinic there ... got waiting area and wait for you number to be flashed and you just sit with the counter-party at the registrar's table. A work (to complete the rectification works) or money (to pay) order will then be ordered. If the other party does not comply, then can proceed to a Writ of Seizure & Sale (more troublesome and some things to note before proceeding).

I'm not sure if the HDB officer will see so closely - that one you got to check on that. Cos during the inspection when you sell the flat, if they happen to see it, then you may have to make good the defect lor ....

Most of the buyers i know do not attend the HDB inspection. They would have open their eyes big big during viewing before putting down deposit and signing OTP form. It is not a compulsory procedure as any property purchase whether private or HDB is purchased on a caveat emptor basis. For those that can afford it, they would get a professional to inspect the place before completing the 2nd appt but this is not a necessity. Although you can get an agent to write down all the list of defects before completion of the 2nd appointment, and the seller does not act on it and the 2nd appointment is completed already, the seller is not obliged to make good the defects.

Also, most buyers and sellers do not want to drag the appointment dates cos it affects both upstream and downstream their plans. If the seller is going to make rectification works, then completion date is dragged on too ...

Why need to pay for a general contractor to do work har ? So that they can make money lor ... if they can make $$ easier by doing less work ... of course they will mah

Hi blueocean, is electrical inspection on the checklist for the HDB officer when he/she comes to inspect the hse during resale? Or is a recommended procedure to buyer?

Hmm.. seems like i'm now directly responsible for the electrical rewiring loh.. no 1 told me i would be responsible if i liase/pay directly with electrician..

Wonder if Henry knows abt this when he asked me to liase directly with Ah liang.. And no, Simon, i do not mean Henry purposely did that.. it may have just slipped his mind about this matter..

So future reno buddies.. pls note loh.. make sure is all in the contract..

yes.. i shld hv find out abt electrical work also..

Hmmm.. but then, if i'm as knowledgable as a contractor.. why am i paying for a contractor to do my work leh.. tot of the day..

Edited May 20, 2010 by blueocean

[fencer 0]

For the electrical re-wiring, you can claim against the electrician directly because of the way you pay.

It is very clear. Unless you had instructed the electrician specifically that it should be done in a certain way and despite his advice, you wanted it done that way, then it is not unreasonable to make a claim. As a consumer, you had relied on the reasonable expertise and skills of the electrician to do the works that is fit for use and conforms to HDB regulation.

Anyway, the Small Claims Tribunal offers the man on the street easy access to the judicial system. It is only $10 or $20 administrative fee depending on contract amount. No need to hire lawyers. They now offer night sessions too. The only downside is giving up time to go to Chinatown area and URA parking there is hard to find ! It is a bit like a polyclinic there ... got waiting area and wait for you number to be flashed and you just sit with the counter-party at the registrar's table. A work (to complete the rectification works) or money (to pay) order will then be ordered. If the other party does not comply, then can proceed to a Writ of Seizure & Sale (more troublesome and some things to note before proceeding).

I'm not sure if the HDB officer will see so closely - that one you got to check on that. Cos during the inspection when you sell the flat, if they happen to see it, then you may have to make good the defect lor ....

Most of the buyers i know do not attend the HDB inspection. They would have open their eyes big big during viewing before putting down deposit and signing OTP form. It is not a compulsory procedure as any property purchase whether private or HDB is purchased on a caveat emptor basis. For those that can afford it, they would get a professional to inspect the place before completing the 2nd appt but this is not a necessity. Although you can get an agent to write down all the list of defects before completion of the 2nd appointment, and the seller does not act on it and the 2nd appointment is completed already, the seller is not obliged to make good the defects.

Also, most buyers and sellers do not want to drag the appointment dates cos it affects both upstream and downstream their plans. If the seller is going to make rectification works, then completion date is dragged on too ...

Why need to pay for a general contractor to do work har ? So that they can make money lor ... if they can make $$ easier by doing less work ... of course they will mah

Hmm.. would most of the man on the street know all these details? don't think so bah..

I , personally, think is that is main purpose of the agent (be it housing or banking), contractors.. to inform and help the man on the street in return of a small or big fees.. of coz to act on behalf of the man, or lady..

I'm sure some contractors/IDs act more responsible, like jaskel.. wonder if there are any who work as contractors/IDs for their own passion, learning experience etc.. of coz among other things such as $$$.. but they would put quality work as piriority coz pleased customers is a good reward (of coz with a fee lah).

I read in my facebook that friend A helped friend B to reno the pl for $40+ and the shelves now is dropping down liao.. coz missing screws.. called the friend A and was scolded.. saying friend B accusing him of using cheap stuff etc.. sigh..

[jeffcraze 0]

Hmm.. would most of the man on the street know all these details? don't think so bah..

I , personally, think is that is main purpose of the agent (be it housing or banking), contractors.. to inform and help the man on the street in return of a small or big fees.. of coz to act on behalf of the man, or lady..

I'm sure some contractors/IDs act more responsible, like jaskel.. wonder if there are any who work as contractors/IDs for their own passion, learning experience etc.. of coz among other things such as $$$.. but they would put quality work as piriority coz pleased customers is a good reward (of coz with a fee lah).

I read in my facebook that friend A helped friend B to reno the pl for $40+ and the shelves now is dropping down liao.. coz missing screws.. called the friend A and was scolded.. saying friend B accusing him of using cheap stuff etc.. sigh..

Yup, fencer, totally agree with u.. coz we as laymen, dun understand those stuffs, that's why need the expertise of those who knows.. That's exactly why we are paying them $$!

Your facebook example is the reason why me and my hubby don't really wanna engage our frenz as our contractors..

[jaskel 2]

Yup, fencer, totally agree with u.. coz we as laymen, dun understand those stuffs, that's why need the expertise of those who knows.. That's exactly why we are paying them $$!

Your facebook example is the reason why me and my hubby don't really wanna engage our frenz as our contractors..

Actually I hope to break this Myth of if friend is contractor, don't let them do. I feel if your friend or relatives ask u to do, u must put in double effort.

[fencer 0]

Yup, fencer, totally agree with u.. coz we as laymen, dun understand those stuffs, that's why need the expertise of those who knows.. That's exactly why we are paying them $$!

Your facebook example is the reason why me and my hubby don't really wanna engage our frenz as our contractors..

Yah loh.. Ha.. mayb alot ppl dun understand what i had gone through.. some good.. some bad.. like some said.. u need experience it yourself then know (i hope no one does though)..

jaskel is a nice guy.. i'm sure he would be on my top list should i reno again for my present hse or future one (hope so).. Ha..

I'm sure alot ppl learned alot from this forum.. including legal advice wic is not readily available unless u know where to find.. Thanks to blueocean..

Yup.. can be good friends with contractors, IDs.. but very hard to draw a line when friend as act your contractor.. Hmm.. ok lah.. sure got exceptional cases.. Ha..

[fencer 0]

Actually I hope to break this Myth of if friend is contractor, don't let them do. I feel if your friend or relatives ask u to do, u must put in double effort.

Ha.. i'm sure you would do your best..

And you would be the exceptional ones.. Haa..

[jaskel 2]

Ha.. i'm sure you would do your best..

And you would be the exceptional ones.. Haa..

Actually for those my friends n relative that I've done, all I charge them cost price and they just paid me a coordinating fee(they name the price) or don't pay me if they found my services not good.

[ngunadi 2]

Cool ...

would be on top of my list also in few years down the road (if jaskel hasn't upgrade to ID yet )

Actually for those my friends n relative that I've done, all I charge them cost price and they just paid me a coordinating fee(they name the price) or don't pay me if they found my services not good.

[blueocean 0]

Definitely need more people like Jaskel in the industry I'm still so impressed with his 3D work on Google Sketch. Im so hopeless in doing CAD drawings ...

Hey .. Fencer ... when are you shifting your furniture in ?

Actually for those my friends n relative that I've done, all I charge them cost price and they just paid me a coordinating fee(they name the price) or don't pay me if they found my services not good.

[jaskel 2]

Cool ...

would be on top of my list also in few years down the road (if jaskel hasn't upgrade to ID yet )

Even I know how to draw or provide 3D drawings, I'm also don't call myself as an ID...and I think most of u have mistaken what is a real ID already. A person who provide a 3D drawings (which we saw a lot in this forum called themselves ID) which they may not be at all.

1st of all...do they have cert. to qualify them as ID?

2nd do they know the material- pros n cons?

3rd they give u A4 size drawing or A3 size drawing with all the material used beside it?

4th they know how to project management on all the sub-cons n not main con?

5th how well they know about the rules and regulations of BCA n HDB?

6th is the design similar with others? Which I'm seem more than 7000 over designs and more than 3/4 of them are similar.

7th how many times are owners told the so called ID what they want to do or the ID told them what they can do?

8th how responsible they are?

A designer never design thing twice. A designer use his/her creativities, knowledge on material and innovate to design an interior or exterior.

Take example....feature wall...don't u think most of it are similar? Square or rect. here add some tinted mirror, laminate, metal strips, etc....all so similar, just change the patterns here and there only...then use 3D rendering drawing...wow look nice...but still...haiz...I'm admit I'm a copycat, cos whatever I done up, it seem no diff. from others design...quite similar. U as a hse owner saw in mag. on what u like and told the contractor what u want + add something here and there...does that make u an ID also? L-box, false ceiling, Cove lighting, u use, I use, everyone use...what so different...

I feel architect are more knowledgable, better design scent and really do up things differently.

Seriously I not against anyone or anybody....this is just my personal point of views....take this as a reading pleasure, no harm to animal or person when I wrote this.

Edited May 20, 2010 by jaskel

[blueocean 0]

What you say mirrors my sentiments about "pseudo-ID" around as they are actually general contractors with a retail storefront ...

Very few consumers can afford to hire a designer as the design fees are prohibitive ...

You seem to have a passion for design works ... Have you though of doing some formal education in that area ?

Even I know how to draw or provide 3D drawings, I'm also don't call myself as an ID...and I think most of u have mistaken what is a real ID already. A person who provide a 3D drawings (which we saw a lot in this forum called themselves ID) which they may not be at all.

1st of all...do they have cert. to qualify them as ID?

2nd do they know the material- pros n cons?

3rd they give u A4 size drawing or A3 size drawing with all the material used beside it?

4th they know how to project management on all the sub-cons n not main con?

5th how well they know about the rules and regulations of BCA n HDB?

6th is the design similar with others? Which I'm seem more than 7000 over designs and more than 3/4 of them are similar.

7th how many times are owners told the so called ID what they want to do or the ID told them what they can do?

8th how responsible they are?

A designer never design thing twice. A designer use his/her creativities, knowledge on material and innovate to design an interior or exterior.

Take example....feature wall...don't u think most of it are similar? Square or rect. here add some tinted mirror, laminate, metal strips, etc....all so similar, just change the patterns here and there only...then use 3D rendering drawing...wow look nice...but still...haiz...I'm admit I'm a copycat, cos whatever I done up, it seem no diff. from others design...quite similar. U as a hse owner saw in mag. on what u like and told the contractor what u want + add something here and there...does that make u an ID also? L-box, false ceiling, Cove lighting, u use, I use, everyone use...what so different...

I feel architect are more knowledgable, better design scent and really do up things differently.

Seriously I not against anyone or anybody....this is just my personal point of views....threat this as reading pleasure, no harm to animal or person when I wrote this.

[fencer 0]

Actually for those my friends n relative that I've done, all I charge them cost price and they just paid me a coordinating fee(they name the price) or don't pay me if they found my services not good.

Aiyoh.. too bad for me.. Ha.. too late also..

"wish" more for 2nd home then can ask jaskel to reno liao.. Ha.. mayb shld buy more toto and 4D.. Ha..

Cool ...

would be on top of my list also in few years down the road (if jaskel hasn't upgrade to ID yet )

Must work hard to keep track of jaskel.. Ha..

Definitely need more people like Jaskel in the industry I'm still so impressed with his 3D work on Google Sketch. Im so hopeless in doing CAD drawings ...

Hey .. Fencer ... when are you shifting your furniture in ?

Yup.. totally agree..

bought some.. moved some in.. yest 1st batch delivery (Cellini) just came in.. sigh.. sofa ok.. kopi table and TV console part A is dented.. asked them to take back loh.. they volunteered to leave it there for me to use 1st while getting replacement.. but ask them to take back loh.. at least can clean more of the exposed floor.. Ha..

Although already paid in full beforehand.. at least they never insist that i take the damaged goods..

the movers are very polite also.. 1 indian guy can speak fluent chinese and hokkien.. Ha..