fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 hi fencer, i'm sorry to hear about all the grief you are going through .. It seems that your contractor has abandoned negotiations and wants to go the legal way .... You should also at the same time send a registered letter of demand to the company's registered address stating that the terms of contract has not been performed, giving them 2-4 weeks to complete and if not will terminate the contract because of non-performance and the cost of rectification will be borne by the company ... There are so much confusion and grief when consumers do renovations ... In summary, for other people reading in this forum .... 1. Small contractor firms ---------------------------- There is always a risk when you choose a small contractor firm. Although they may offer one a warranty period on completion of the project, nothing guarantees that the firm will not close down and re-open under a new name ! Also, most firms will always ask for a upfront payment first before you see your renovation work. If the firm is a "one person company", the probability of getting back your money if the firm absconds would be unlikely ... 2. Progress payments ------------------------- Although most firms talk about "standard progress payment" for renovation - there is nothing standard about it. They will demand 10% on signing, 45% on commencement of work etc. Unlike the purchase of new condos where there is a normal progressive payment, all these progress payment for renovation can be negotiated and usually pegged to completion to satisfaction of key milestones. For big building projects there is usually reference to the Singapore Institute of Architects terms and conditions for building contracts. For consumers, there is none although there is an attempt by RADAC to provide a standard contract - even so most ID firms do not use it. In the end, the contract is drafted by the ID company to their benefit. 3. Role of the main contractor --------------------------------- Do not be confused on the main role of the main contractor (ie the ID firm). There is a difference "on being nice" and being taken advantaged of by the contractors. Although the owner may want to be at the site to make sure things dont go wrong, he is not obliged to. The owner is also not obliged to speak to the sub-contractors although he may choose to. Check how are you doing your renovation : 1. Hire an established interior designer This is more expensive. You pay for him to come up with the detailed plans, 3D perspectives and design. Then, you can either find a contractor to execute the plans or the interior designer will also undertake the "build" part (and becomes similar to "2") 2. Hire a "pseudo-ID firm" - general contractors with a storefront This is very common. Most ID firms are "pseudo-ID firms" as they are actually general contractors with a retail storefront. They are seem at shopping centres and Expo. They may or may not have a small team of interior designers and most of the people you talk to are sales people who also undertake the co-ordination work. Most firms offer a few 3D perspectives (quite easily done these days through software) and almost no plans. Some firms outsourced their 3D perspectives out to another company or just re-use previous 3D perspectives. 3. Hire a general contractor These firms do not have a retail storefront and therefore cheaper. 4. Hire many individual trade sub-contractor You hire individual trades people/firm yourself .... and the owner is responsible for the design and build. This risk is that all the sub-trades people will blame the other if something goes wrong. You also undertake the overall risk for third party liabilities .... In 2 and 3, the contract is clear. The main contractor is responsible for the overall design and build of your interior renovation. This is unlike the case whereby you have separately contracted different sub-contractors yourself. And that is why, when you engage a main contractor, the fees and charges are higher because the firm has undertaken the responsibility of providing reasonable standard of workmanship and performance. It is totally unacceptable for the main contractor/ID to shun responsibility when things become difficult and still demand payment although the contract has not been performed to completion. 4. Mis-communications -------------------------- Most consumers do not demand for detailed plans and confusion can be prevented at the "contracting" stage with plans, pictures on what is supposed to be done. The plans or pictures (whether or not you do it yourself) should include electrical plans, lighting plans, air-con duct plan, internal and external elevation plans for carpentry work, ceiling work plans etc . If you do not have any plans/pictures, then when there is a problem, it is harder to resolve .... Most main contractors/ID like to work on giving you very little information and the contract that you have signed is vague on the details of the renovation (eg does not include dimensions, type of materials being used) and no plans on how the plumbing/electrical wires are supposed to run. This usually benefits the firm because when a dispute arises, they will point to the contract not specifying any of that. 5. Workmanship standards ------------------------------- The BCA website has a number of guidebooks on standards for windows, tiling, carpentry etc Look under CONQUAS. Although it used predominately on big projects for quality management, it is also applicable for domestic users. This will provide you a reasonable basis for assessing what is a reasonable standard when assessing your internal renovations ... If you live in a condo or buying a condo, you can also look at the developer's CONQUAS score for their various projects ... interesting reading ! 6. A note on liability issues ------------------------------- Most consumers don't consider this. Do consider third party liability issues - if you general contractor damages your neighbor's unit, a fire breaks out because of the their negligence (eg they cut a gas pipe and lights a cigarette) , the worker falls and injures himself. Would the general contractor be able to cover all these possible risk and remain financially solvent if they are sued for that ? eg do they have insurance cover ? Else, if the aggravated parties are unable to seek compensation from the contractor company, they will come after the owner because of vicarious liability. Also, consider who covers for damages if something happens to your flat during renovation eg if fire breaks out? The usual house and contents insurance do not normally cover for these .... Some ID firms like to bring clients to your house/unit with or without your knowledge, but remember that if they fall or break their leg etc, the owners are still vicariously liable to pay for the injuries. These are the issues that most people dont think of .... Thanks blueocean.. I'll read up on the BCA website on the standards. These information is certainly very useful to everyone who is planning reno, in the midst or even after reno ha finished.. There's alot of useful information to digest and learn.. And i would spread the word as well to all my friends and ppl i know on how to better protect themselves again rogue contractors. Personally, i tink is time ppl step up to contractors who is irresponsible. And more ppl should step forward with their encounters so that the public can be better informed and therefore knows how to better protect themselves. And of coz, the good should also be praise for their effort and work done. There would alway be 2 camps.. but then, the public has the right to know what is happening and therefore decide for themselves. That is the purpose of this forum to share the good and the bad (i suppose). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcbing 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) To share my latest discovery... - Discovered that the paints (I HOPE is only the paints), part connecting the door frame to the wall, is starting to crack for all my 3 rooms. - Master bedroom toilet's shower area drainage is not taking water fast enuf and would flood over to the basin side when bathing. (THIS MUST BE RECTIFIED). fyi. it is an additional drainage point added which is connected to the main drainage hole. Those going step down, pls be careful of drainage. Need to bath or on water at full blast to test.. I find it's quite common that the new paint coat would start to crack (albeit hairlines) along the edge between door frame and wall in some of the newly renovated houses that I've seen. This is even more so when that area has been patched up with wall putty or something (coz door frame has been replaced) and as far as I understand it, it usually happens after the wall putty dries up. I simply just got it repainted and no more issues. As for your master washroom shower area, what's the depth of the step-down? No shower screen installed? It's pretty much a moot point without one installed to curb water splashing over to the dry area. Unless you don't see water flowing towards the floor-trap...that would of course be another concern on how steep your flooring is. Cheers! Edited May 17, 2010 by hcbing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 I find it's quite common that the new paint coat would start to crack (albeit hairlines) along the edge between door frame and wall in some of the newly renovated houses that I've seen. This is even more so when that area has been patched up with wall putty or something (coz door frame has been replaced) and as far as I understand it, it usually happens after the wall putty dries up. I simply just got it repainted and no more issues. As for your master washroom shower area, what's the depth of the step-down? No shower screen installed? It's pretty much a moot point without one installed to curb water splashing over to the dry area. Unless you don't see water flowing towards the floor-trap...that would of course be another concern on how steep your flooring is. Cheers! Hi hcbing, some is whole length, some is certain portion only.. would it be better to scrap all the paint off (whole length, even those un effected parts) and repaint? won't crack again after repaint? what's a moot point? We actually planned to put shower curtain.. i'm sure the pipe connected is smaller then the cover of the hole. And is not tapered (big to small towards pipe leh.. the cover of the hole cannot be removed (shld be right?) and some part of the cover is sealed with cement.. the water in the shower area actually rose quite fast.. e.g the hole is not taking in water fast enuf.. i had seen the cleaner full blast all the tapes when cleaning the toilet and the water is filled up to the toilet bowl area and is at least 1cm above the tiles.. Do you know abt the steepness of all the tiles? e.g shower area, the drainage hole shld be the lowest so water flows to it. The room/living/dining shld be levelled? kitchen floor shld e levelled in such a way that water flows towards the drainage hole? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcbing 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) Hi hcbing, some is whole length, some is certain portion only.. would it be better to scrap all the paint off (whole length, even those un effected parts) and repaint? won't crack again after repaint? what's a moot point? We actually planned to put shower curtain.. i'm sure the pipe connected is smaller then the cover of the hole. And is not tapered (big to small towards pipe leh.. the cover of the hole cannot be removed (shld be right?) and some part of the cover is sealed with cement.. the water in the shower area actually rose quite fast.. e.g the hole is not taking in water fast enuf.. i had seen the cleaner full blast all the tapes when cleaning the toilet and the water is filled up to the toilet bowl area and is at least 1cm above the tiles.. Do you know abt the steepness of all the tiles? e.g shower area, the drainage hole shld be the lowest so water flows to it. The room/living/dining shld be levelled? kitchen floor shld e levelled in such a way that water flows towards the drainage hole? For my case, I just repainted over. It looked better and I was satisfied that it was even enough so left it that way. Looks fine now after it's dried up. Yes, the tiles in the shower area should be placed in such a way that water flows towards the floor-trap (kinda obvious there). You'll have to observe your floor-trap. Does it choke or overflows? If the floor-trap does overflow, you'll might have to do what I did ...lifted the cover up, reached my hand all the way in and see if there's anything trapped in there...or maybe the toilet monster's just hiding. I did that on all my floor-traps just to be sure...but so far haven't had any issues with over-flowing though. My original plan didn't include a shower screen so we went for a normal shower kerb which is normally alot higher to prevent water flowing to the dry area. A step-down is just about an inch plus (I haven't measured exactly) so water would most probably overflow easily without anything to screen. As for the kitchen floor, the smaller area nearer to the drainage hole should be steeped towards to allow water flow whenever you flood your kitchen floor. But it's not necessarily true for the entire kitchen floor space...that would be weird. Edited May 17, 2010 by hcbing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) For my case, I just repainted over. It looked better and I was satisfied that it was even enough so left it that way. Looks fine now after it's dried up. Yes, the tiles in the shower area should be placed in such a way that water flows towards the floor-trap (kinda obvious there). You'll have to observe your floor-trap. Does it choke or overflows? If the floor-trap does overflow, you'll might have to do what I did ...lifted the cover up, reached my hand all the way in and see if there's anything trapped in there...or maybe the toilet monster's just hiding. I did that on all my floor-traps just to be sure...but so far haven't had any issues with over-flowing though. My original plan didn't include a shower screen so we went for a normal shower kerb which is normally alot higher to prevent water flowing to the dry area. A step-down is just about an inch plus (I haven't measured exactly) so water would most probably overflow easily without anything to screen. As for the kitchen floor, the smaller area nearer to the drainage hole should be steeped towards to allow water flow whenever you flood your kitchen floor. But it's not necessarily true for the entire kitchen floor space...that would be weird. Oh.. ok.. see i DIY lah.. HA.. My main floor-trap is ok... is under the basin though.. Is the round floor-trap in the bathing area wic had problem. i suppose coz is partially covered by cement so the drainage is less efficient. And i can't take it out coz of the cement. The piping underneath is like 1.5in, wic is connected to the main drainage hole (under basin)? I initially asked for a kerb but Henry said the step down is nicer.. anyway lve it lah.. Hmm.. with the step down, isit normal for water to overflow to the dry area? tot the drainage hole is there to prevent that? My kitchen have 3 spots wic water would accumulate leh.. 1 on the fridge kerb at the corner near the wall, 1 just below the fridge curb at the corner near the wall, another at the box up near the dustbin.. 1 more at the guest room wic water would accumulate behind the door. Guess this i have to accept mah.. dun wan risk hacking the tiles to make it even and make the place more dusty.. Edited May 17, 2010 by fencer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pretty99 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 Learn a lots from fencer forum. Thanks for sharing. I consider to do the step down instead of kerb with the swing shower tampered glass door to prevent water overflow to dry part and your toes wont hit the kerb...floor tiles "Shi Fu" should lower the area in the drainage hole to let the water flow into it...but this required a sharp tiles skill and water level measurement from the "Shi Fu".... this is the theory..if the " Shi Fu" do it properly shouldnt be a problem... During my search of IDs and contractors, some of IDs not allow to do the step down matter in toilets because they say it is illegal based on HDB rules. I surprised to hear that cos i had viewing few samples houses which using this matter. One words can describe from this finding is the tiles " Shi Fu" experience or not and are they willing to spend more time to do or they just want to short cut the job. Hope can help those who are doing reno in toilet floor. Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 Learn a lots from fencer forum. Thanks for sharing. I consider to do the step down instead of kerb with the swing shower tampered glass door to prevent water overflow to dry part and your toes wont hit the kerb...floor tiles "Shi Fu" should lower the area in the drainage hole to let the water flow into it...but this required a sharp tiles skill and water level measurement from the "Shi Fu".... this is the theory..if the " Shi Fu" do it properly shouldnt be a problem... During my search of IDs and contractors, some of IDs not allow to do the step down matter in toilets because they say it is illegal based on HDB rules. I surprised to hear that cos i had viewing few samples houses which using this matter. One words can describe from this finding is the tiles " Shi Fu" experience or not and are they willing to spend more time to do or they just want to short cut the job. Hope can help those who are doing reno in toilet floor. Cheers. Hi Pretty99, base on my own theory only huh.. Ha.. if done correctly, the water shld not overflow to the dry part if the drainage is done correctly. e.g The floor trap shld be taking in water fast enuf. Initially consider only kerb coz my toilet is small oledi so wanna use shower curtain to make it make it "appear" bigger... Henry suggested step down coz nicer and i only know abt it after the tiler finishing the toilet.. anyway.. i not having glass divider so didn't make a big fuss.. I had seen alot of setp downs in my friends houses so mayb the company tink the tiler skill not that good so dun wan take the risk bah.. Hahah.. mayb huh.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) Something to share on my gate.. wic i hope is not a problem.. e.g gate wld drop and hit some1? Mayb is purposely done this way.. anyway.. the gate stays open when opened.. so hope is not a problem.. Top left side of the gate.. Bottom left side of the gate.. looks good right?? Bottom right side of the gate.. And now.. see the top right side of the gate... whala... For those who cannot see the difference, look at the door space left for the gate for all the pics.. e.g the white part wic is the door frame.. 4th pic is almost missing it.. Edited May 17, 2010 by fencer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 (edited) info.. the height of the step down in my master bedroom toilet is 3/4 of an inch while the common toilet is 1 1/4 inch.. Pics of the drainage area in my master bedroom toilet.. The pipe used is abt 1.5in in diameter.. and notice a number of holes for the cover is cemented.. so i tink is what caused the water not to drain out fast enuf.. These 3 pics are taken abt the same time.. Left side which is nearest to the drainage hole, is haf filled with water. Right side which is furthest away froom the drainage hole.. the water is stil very very low.. Notice the place near the stainless steel tray is stil quite dry.. while the other side is almost fill to the top.. I'm not sure if this is the design.. i'll DIY and try remove some of the cement bah (using drill).. hope water can flow faster... Edited May 17, 2010 by fencer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
infinitie 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 Guess what.. after a hard day of work today.. i finally get to see the final quotation in my email after 1 month plus of reminding and reminding and reminding.. and is attached with a surprise msg.. Please settle your outstanding payment of renovation of above premises by 18th May 2010 If outstanding payment not receive by 18th May 2010 , legal action will be commenced. Funny.. - The date on the finalised quotation is had been backdated to 29 April whereas is sent to me today. - There is a statement in the quotation.. "All warranty will commence only after after full payment".. wic i totally agree.. - There are additional items in the final quotation wic i dun know abt. And 1 item had been double itemised and therfore double charged.. Wow.. Term of Payment: "10% upon project completed".. Project not yet complete. The last quotation was not verified or seen before.. There was no mention of final date of renovation.. And i'm suppose to pay up on a date set by Henry and not discussed with me?? and get legal action against me if i dun pay up in 3 days? Hey Fencer, This is getting ridculous... Wonder does he know what is he doing or not? Hope you can settle your problem. Cheer up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MayLove 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 Guess what.. after a hard day of work today.. i finally get to see the final quotation in my email after 1 month plus of reminding and reminding and reminding.. and is attached with a surprise msg.. Please settle your outstanding payment of renovation of above premises by 18th May 2010 If outstanding payment not receive by 18th May 2010 , legal action will be commenced. Funny.. - The date on the finalised quotation is had been backdated to 29 April whereas is sent to me today. - There is a statement in the quotation.. "All warranty will commence only after after full payment".. wic i totally agree.. - There are additional items in the final quotation wic i dun know abt. And 1 item had been double itemised and therfore double charged.. Wow.. Term of Payment: "10% upon project completed".. Project not yet complete. The last quotation was not verified or seen before.. There was no mention of final date of renovation.. And i'm suppose to pay up on a date set by Henry and not discussed with me?? and get legal action against me if i dun pay up in 3 days? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MayLove 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 By the way, Henry has dragged so long to give a simple quotation or final bill. Nothing is ever signed for after the first quotation. My principle: 1) I do not pay till I see what is in the bill to verify it. 2) At least, I need to know what is the amount to pay and how much to pay. I am sure no one paid up without knowing whether the final bill is correct or without knowing what they are paying for. How would you know you are not double-charged? If anyone tell me you can pay up without seeing the final products or know what you are paying for, then i can say you are rich man... If someone dun do their work well and threaten me with a lawyer letter, I wouldn't want to pay up the last payment until he complete his work cos it is just the contractor's tactic, making you afraid. I dun give in to threats. At the most, I would prepare my lawyer to fight. See who is at the losing end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 Hey Fencer, This is getting ridculous... Wonder does he know what is he doing or not? Hope you can settle your problem. Cheer up I sure hope he knows what he is doing.. coz this is going to get very messy.. By the way, Henry has dragged so long to give a simple quotation or final bill. Nothing is ever signed for after the first quotation. My principle: 1) I do not pay till I see what is in the bill to verify it. 2) At least, I need to know what is the amount to pay and how much to pay. I am sure no one paid up without knowing whether the final bill is correct or without knowing what they are paying for. How would you know you are not double-charged? If anyone tell me you can pay up without seeing the final products or know what you are paying for, then i can say you are rich man... If someone dun do their work well and threaten me with a lawyer letter, I wouldn't want to pay up the last payment until he complete his work cos it is just the contractor's tactic, making you afraid. I dun give in to threats. At the most, I would prepare my lawyer to fight. See who is at the losing end. Yup.. i totally agree... That's why i'm writing my official letter of demand at the moment. Would send it out by 2morow.. Also be send email to various agencies to complain about Henry and his company, including HDB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
budgetice 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 By the way, Henry has dragged so long to give a simple quotation or final bill. Nothing is ever signed for after the first quotation. My principle: 1) I do not pay till I see what is in the bill to verify it. 2) At least, I need to know what is the amount to pay and how much to pay. I am sure no one paid up without knowing whether the final bill is correct or without knowing what they are paying for. How would you know you are not double-charged? If anyone tell me you can pay up without seeing the final products or know what you are paying for, then i can say you are rich man... If someone dun do their work well and threaten me with a lawyer letter, I wouldn't want to pay up the last payment until he complete his work cos it is just the contractor's tactic, making you afraid. I dun give in to threats. At the most, I would prepare my lawyer to fight. See who is at the losing end. Maylove u want to sponsor Fencer the lawyer fee? Fencer, going to the extend of using legal channel to get $$ back is quite serious already. Is there anything that you could have missed out during the whole course of the reno? I'm sure you did a lot of research and also visit some of his work before engaing him. Is there any miscom? Why dont u all sit down and talk over a cup of tea? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencer 0 Report post Posted May 17, 2010 Maylove u want to sponsor Fencer the lawyer fee? Fencer, going to the extend of using legal channel to get $$ back is quite serious already. Is there anything that you could have missed out during the whole course of the reno? I'm sure you did a lot of research and also visit some of his work before engaing him. Is there any miscom? Why dont u all sit down and talk over a cup of tea? I just want the window frame and grill and the broken tile replaced, and the pipe done properly.. and i definately won't pay him the last 10% without the job being complete in the proper way.. i dun intend to go through all these just to get back $$ from him.. coz i can spend the $$ wic i didn't give him to employ others to do it. Time is more important to me.. Well.. Henry is the 1 who is threatening me with legal actions.. not the other way around loh.. But if he insist, i dun mind loh... Hmm.. i hardly call it miscomm.. i told him in plain words what i wanted. e.g send me the last quotation. dun tink how it can be a miscomm.. I gathered good feedback on him so employ him loh.. saw the works only from the forum.. looks good.. and no complains.. i gather i'm the unlucky few bah.. I still dun see y it is so hard to just do your job and get paid for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
