Reno @my Simei 4a Resale Flat

[blueocean 0]

I dont think you need to worry much about the lawyer's letter. The initial one is usually the letter of demand (sometimes it is disguised to look as if it is a court document) from a law firm which is inexpensive.

The "sue and counter-sue" stage - subsequently, if the ID firm thinks it is worth pursuing after looking at legal cost, they will proceed with lodging a writ of summons. Anyway, the Small Claims Tribunal is always an option that is open for you as it is inexpensive.

It is also not uncommon to hold back 10% of amount owing as completion bond as a form of surety.

Good luck in your renovation ....

Edited May 15, 2010 by blueocean

[fencer 0]

I was reading this trend with interest ...

Most of the work that is done by IDs are in fact general contractors offering consumers a "design and build" contract, whereby the the contractor undertakes the responsibility to design and build. The consumer therefore only needs to have one contract with one company to renovate his place versus having multiple contracts with different companies (eg painter, ceiling works, tiling company). The purpose of having one main contractor is so that the responsibility is clear - the design and completion of the project to a reasonable workmanship standard. This avoids the situation whereby where there are multiple contracts involved and each one with blame each other for the problems.

Would it be funny if we bought a house from the developer (who develops it via sub-contracting it to builders etc) and when you collect the keys and the window falls apart, tells us that we have to speak to the individual sub-contractor instead ? Fortunately for new houses, consumers are also protected by the Housing Developers Act which provides for a defect liability period.

Back to the original point, consumers are usually on the losing end when doing renovations as most contracts are one sided and does not include any liquidated damages clauses. Most contractors also "cherry pick" the least knowledgeable consumers as there is so much work available for them to do. In building projects, developers are well protected because there is so many safety mechanisms for them eg performance bonds whereby the contractors are not paid if specified standards are not met.

Well said blueocean..

Are you a lawyer by the way?

I dont think you need to worry much about the lawyer's letter. The initial one is usually the letter of demand (sometimes it is disguised to look as if it is a court document) from a law firm which is inexpensive.

The "sue and counter-sue" stage - subsequently, if the ID firm thinks it is worth pursuing after looking at legal cost, they will proceed with lodging a writ of summons. Anyway, the Small Claims Tribunal is always an option that is open for you as it is inexpensive.

It is also not uncommon to hold back 10% of amount owing as completion bond as a form of surety.

Good luck in your renovation ....

Thanks for the info, blueocean..

[fencer 0]

Guess what.. after a hard day of work today.. i finally get to see the final quotation in my email after 1 month plus of reminding and reminding and reminding.. and is attached with a surprise msg..

Please settle your outstanding payment of renovation of above premises by 18th May 2010

If outstanding payment not receive by 18th May 2010 , legal action will be commenced.

Funny..

- The date on the finalised quotation is had been backdated to 29 April whereas is sent to me today.

- There is a statement in the quotation.. "All warranty will commence only after after full payment".. wic i totally agree..

- There are additional items in the final quotation wic i dun know abt. And 1 item had been double itemised and therfore double charged.. Wow..

Term of Payment: "10% upon project completed"..

Project not yet complete. The last quotation was not verified or seen before.. There was no mention of final date of renovation..

And i'm suppose to pay up on a date set by Henry and not discussed with me?? and get legal action against me if i dun pay up in 3 days?

[jeffcraze 0]

Guess what.. after a hard day of work today.. i finally get to see the final quotation in my email after 1 month plus of reminding and reminding and reminding.. and is attached with a surprise msg..

Please settle your outstanding payment of renovation of above premises by 18th May 2010

If outstanding payment not receive by 18th May 2010 , legal action will be commenced.

Funny..

- The date on the finalised quotation is had been backdated to 29 April whereas is sent to me today.

- There is a statement in the quotation.. "All warranty will commence only after after full payment".. wic i totally agree..

- There are additional items in the final quotation wic i dun know abt. And 1 item had been double itemised and therfore double charged.. Wow..

Term of Payment: "10% upon project completed"..

Project not yet complete. The last quotation was not verified or seen before.. There was no mention of final date of renovation..

And i'm suppose to pay up on a date set by Henry and not discussed with me?? and get legal action against me if i dun pay up in 3 days?

I see this, I am like Hope someone can advise u on the legal aspects.. This is getting to be rather serious as 18th is like, next Tues!

[fencer 0]

I see this, I am like Hope someone can advise u on the legal aspects.. This is getting to be rather serious as 18th is like, next Tues!

Well.. is not as if i dun pay up after my reno is finished by a date set by Henry and i agreed. Coz my reno is stil not complete mah.. and the final quotation is not communicated to me or verified at all.. Cannot be he added a $1k item and i bo bian hv to guai guai pay up mah.. If he can suudenly say reno is finished even though i dun agree and can anyhow add item in into quotation and claim is the correct and verified quotation.. and ppl stil pay up.. i also wan to be contractor loh.. so good money.. so many carrrothead out there..

[gimz63251073 0]

yea this is the ideal situation, but there are still times when there is a need to talk to subcons directly. see my explanation to fencer in a later post.

on the other hands, there are some pple who prefer to talk to subcon cos things can get done faster. it really depends on individual preference.

speaking to subcons to speed up work would imply ID is inefficient in passing instructions or not doing a good job already.

We had a bad paint job experience. Our main con brought his painter along and we refused to talk to the painter.. Simple reason, we engaged Main con, if sub con screw up, its the main con problem. All our complaints are directed to the main con. Subsequently, all defects are rectified.

Faster by talking to sub con? then your ID or main con would have failed in his coordination.

[ngunadi 2]

I beg to differ.

Like you said, speaking to subcons might imply that ID is not doing a good job. But sometimes it's a necessary evil.

I prefer to speak to subcon directly (if possible) for 1 simple reason. Reduce any miscommunication error.

By speaking to sub-con directly, it'd reduce any possible error from ID. Even ID is the best, error might still occur.

speaking to subcons to speed up work would imply ID is inefficient in passing instructions or not doing a good job already.

We had a bad paint job experience. Our main con brought his painter along and we refused to talk to the painter.. Simple reason, we engaged Main con, if sub con screw up, its the main con problem. All our complaints are directed to the main con. Subsequently, all defects are rectified.

Faster by talking to sub con? then your ID or main con would have failed in his coordination.

[fencer 0]

I beg to differ.

Like you said, speaking to subcons might imply that ID is not doing a good job. But sometimes it's a necessary evil.

I prefer to speak to subcon directly (if possible) for 1 simple reason. Reduce any miscommunication error.

By speaking to sub-con directly, it'd reduce any possible error from ID. Even ID is the best, error might still occur.

I think this depends solely on the owner. Owner can willingly talk to sub-con to reduce miscomm. Owner van also choose to communicate only to contractor or ID. I'm sure the owner have the right to decide since is the paying customer.

Cannot be the owner is paying for the reno but hv no say At all, and contractor can either make decision on reno or throw the owner to sub-con to discuss and decide. If things are not done right. Who is to blame? Contractor Engaged for reno or owner who is paying for the reno? Some owners just dun feel confotable talking to sub-con simply coz they do not know if they are advices correctly. Isn't that the purpose if employing a contractor? Primary purpose is for a single person to handle the reno?

[Lovely 0]

Guess what.. after a hard day of work today.. i finally get to see the final quotation in my email after 1 month plus of reminding and reminding and reminding.. and is attached with a surprise msg..

Please settle your outstanding payment of renovation of above premises by 18th May 2010

If outstanding payment not receive by 18th May 2010 , legal action will be commenced.

Funny..

- The date on the finalised quotation is had been backdated to 29 April whereas is sent to me today.

- There is a statement in the quotation.. "All warranty will commence only after after full payment".. wic i totally agree..

- There are additional items in the final quotation wic i dun know abt. And 1 item had been double itemised and therfore double charged.. Wow..

Term of Payment: "10% upon project completed"..

Project not yet complete. The last quotation was not verified or seen before.. There was no mention of final date of renovation..

And i'm suppose to pay up on a date set by Henry and not discussed with me?? and get legal action against me if i dun pay up in 3 days?

Hope Henry will rectify all the defects before sending owners lawyer letter or take legal action.

There are some loopholes in here and if to go to legal suit...Henry is most properly in the lossing end.

1st, fencer did not sign the last finalised quotation...so the last quotation did not go into becoming a legal contract agreement between the owner and the company.

Since this is not so, the first signed quotation is the only legal contract that can be used.

2nd, All warranty will commence only after full payment. Which I'm total agree too but the sentence also mean that goods deliver as to good working condition and was accepted by owner/buyer. Owner/buyer paid the rest of the payment and warranty will commence on that date.

e.g. u go Courts or Best buy Samsung LED TV, paid a deposit, then they deliver to the house and install it. Found out the LED TV did not work after turning on the power. Did the delivery man ask u to paid the balance and told u to send the warranty to Samsung as warranty will commence only after full payment or they will bring back and change a new one for u.

My advise to fencer, monday, u can go to CASE or small claim to make a report first.

[gimz63251073 0]

I beg to differ.

Like you said, speaking to subcons might imply that ID is not doing a good job. But sometimes it's a necessary evil.

I prefer to speak to subcon directly (if possible) for 1 simple reason. Reduce any miscommunication error.

By speaking to sub-con directly, it'd reduce any possible error from ID. Even ID is the best, error might still occur.

miscomm error? is it because your instructions not clear or ID's ears are blocked?

if instructions are clear, then its the receipent who either remembers it wrongly or simply anyhow do.

I would consider speaking to sub con as a last resort if i am in a very big rush for time and that ID has repeatedly screw up. Speaking to sub con equates to spoiling your ID, he should be more than capable of coordinating and passing on instructions as this is his rice bowl.

i do agree with fencer that customer can and have the right to choose. We signed up the contract with ID, when things go wrong of course we look for ID. Legal, logical and practical. Rightfully the sub con do not even have to listen to us, he has no contract with us, he just needs to be accountable to his customer, i.e. the ID. ID never say anything = ok, smile and collect $ can already.

[fencer 0]

Hope Henry will rectify all the defects before sending owners lawyer letter or take legal action.

There are some loopholes in here and if to go to legal suit...Henry is most properly in the lossing end.

1st, fencer did not sign the last finalised quotation...so the last quotation did not go into becoming a legal contract agreement between the owner and the company.

Since this is not so, the first signed quotation is the only legal contract that can be used.

2nd, All warranty will commence only after full payment. Which I'm total agree too but the sentence also mean that goods deliver as to good working condition and was accepted by owner/buyer. Owner/buyer paid the rest of the payment and warranty will commence on that date.

e.g. u go Courts or Best buy Samsung LED TV, paid a deposit, then they deliver to the house and install it. Found out the LED TV did not work after turning on the power. Did the delivery man ask u to paid the balance and told u to send the warranty to Samsung as warranty will commence only after full payment or they will bring back and change a new one for u.

My advise to fencer, monday, u can go to CASE or small claim to make a report first.

Hi Lovely.. i'm sure Henry had tot of it very very seriously before threatening some1 with legal action, and knows the consequences well enough since he is not a "fresh grad".. well.. i can loss some cash and time.. he can loss his license, credability and be blacklisted..

Read this post after dinner just now. Ha.. so coincident.. Told my father and bro-in-law abt Mr Henry threatening with legal actions, they too adviced me to go to CASE as well.

I think i'll do just that. And i'll also be contacting HDB, BCA and NEA as well.

Any1 knows any more agency i shld contact (so as not to appear to look like a carrothead)?

But to be polite, i'll draft and send an email to Henry as adviced by my bro-in-law, who knows the field very well.

miscomm error? is it because your instructions not clear or ID's ears are blocked?

if instructions are clear, then its the receipent who either remembers it wrongly or simply anyhow do.

I would consider speaking to sub con as a last resort if i am in a very big rush for time and that ID has repeatedly screw up. Speaking to sub con equates to spoiling your ID, he should be more than capable of coordinating and passing on instructions as this is his rice bowl.

i do agree with fencer that customer can and have the right to choose. We signed up the contract with ID, when things go wrong of course we look for ID. Legal, logical and practical. Rightfully the sub con do not even have to listen to us, he has no contract with us, he just needs to be accountable to his customer, i.e. the ID. ID never say anything = ok, smile and collect $ can already.

Hi gimz63251073, think Henry is just riding too high up on the waves... as the saying goes.. the higher they are, the harder they fall..

He must be thinking that he can take some1 for a ride and that some1 has to and will pay him for the ride..

[Mickey M 0]

Not to worry. In any case, u can counter-sue him.

Anyway, I agree anyone should listen to story from both sides before taking sides. But whatever said by both sides will be biased against the other party.

However, I will side with the owners as after all, I am also a owner renovating my own place. And photos speak a thousand words. If the pipe is crooked, it is crooked.

[hcbing 0]

Hey fencer, have you moved in yet? Mind showing us photos of your new home?

[blueocean 0]

hi fencer,

i'm sorry to hear about all the grief you are going through ..

It seems that your contractor has abandoned negotiations and wants to go the legal way ....

You should also at the same time send a registered letter of demand to the company's registered address stating that the terms of contract has not been performed, giving them 2-4 weeks to complete and if not will terminate the contract because of non-performance and the cost of rectification will be borne by the company ...

There are so much confusion and grief when consumers do renovations ...

In summary, for other people reading in this forum ....

1. Small contractor firms

----------------------------

There is always a risk when you choose a small contractor firm. Although they may offer one a warranty period on completion of the project, nothing guarantees that the firm will not close down and re-open under a new name !

Also, most firms will always ask for a upfront payment first before you see your renovation work. If the firm is a "one person company", the probability of getting back your money if the firm absconds would be unlikely ...

2. Progress payments

-------------------------

Although most firms talk about "standard progress payment" for renovation - there is nothing standard about it. They will demand 10% on signing, 45% on commencement of work etc. Unlike the purchase of new condos where there is a normal progressive payment, all these progress payment for renovation can be negotiated and usually pegged to completion to satisfaction of key milestones.

For big building projects there is usually reference to the Singapore Institute of Architects terms and conditions for building contracts. For consumers, there is none although there is an attempt by RADAC to provide a standard contract - even so most ID firms do not use it. In the end, the contract is drafted by the ID company to their benefit.

3. Role of the main contractor

---------------------------------

Do not be confused on the main role of the main contractor (ie the ID firm).

There is a difference "on being nice" and being taken advantaged of by the contractors. Although the owner may want to be at the site to make sure things dont go wrong, he is not obliged to. The owner is also not obliged to speak to the sub-contractors although he may choose to.

Check how are you doing your renovation :

1. Hire an established interior designer

This is more expensive. You pay for him to come up with the detailed plans, 3D perspectives and design. Then, you can either find a contractor to execute the plans or the interior designer will also undertake the "build" part (and becomes similar to "2")

2. Hire a "pseudo-ID firm" - general contractors with a storefront

This is very common. Most ID firms are "pseudo-ID firms" as they are actually general contractors with a retail storefront. They are seem at shopping centres and Expo. They may or may not have a small team of interior designers and most of the people you talk to are sales people who also undertake the co-ordination work.

Most firms offer a few 3D perspectives (quite easily done these days through software) and almost no plans. Some firms outsourced their 3D perspectives out to another company or just re-use previous 3D perspectives.

3. Hire a general contractor

These firms do not have a retail storefront and therefore cheaper.

4. Hire many individual trade sub-contractor

You hire individual trades people/firm yourself .... and the owner is responsible for the design and build. This risk is that all the sub-trades people will blame the other if something goes wrong. You also undertake the overall risk for third party liabilities ....

In 2 and 3, the contract is clear. The main contractor is responsible for the overall design and build of your interior renovation. This is unlike the case whereby you have separately contracted different sub-contractors yourself. And that is why, when you engage a main contractor, the fees and charges are higher because the firm has undertaken the responsibility of providing reasonable standard of workmanship and performance.

It is totally unacceptable for the main contractor/ID to shun responsibility when things become difficult and still demand payment although the contract has not been performed to completion.

4. Mis-communications

--------------------------

Most consumers do not demand for detailed plans and confusion can be prevented at the "contracting" stage with plans, pictures on what is supposed to be done. The plans or pictures (whether or not you do it yourself) should include electrical plans, lighting plans, air-con duct plan, internal and external elevation plans for carpentry work, ceiling work plans etc . If you do not have any plans/pictures, then when there is a problem, it is harder to resolve ....

Most main contractors/ID like to work on giving you very little information and the contract that you have signed is vague on the details of the renovation (eg does not include dimensions, type of materials being used) and no plans on how the plumbing/electrical wires are supposed to run. This usually benefits the firm because when a dispute arises, they will point to the contract not specifying any of that.

5. Workmanship standards

-------------------------------

The BCA website has a number of guidebooks on standards for windows, tiling, carpentry etc Look under CONQUAS. Although it used predominately on big projects for quality management, it is also applicable for domestic users.

This will provide you a reasonable basis for assessing what is a reasonable standard when assessing your internal renovations ...

If you live in a condo or buying a condo, you can also look at the developer's CONQUAS score for their various projects ... interesting reading !

6. A note on liability issues

-------------------------------

Most consumers don't consider this. Do consider third party liability issues - if you general contractor damages your neighbor's unit, a fire breaks out because of the their negligence (eg they cut a gas pipe and lights a cigarette) , the worker falls and injures himself. Would the general contractor be able to cover all these possible risk and remain financially solvent if they are sued for that ? eg do they have insurance cover ?

Else, if the aggravated parties are unable to seek compensation from the contractor company, they will come after the owner because of vicarious liability.

Also, consider who covers for damages if something happens to your flat during renovation eg if fire breaks out? The usual house and contents insurance do not normally cover for these ....

Some ID firms like to bring clients to your house/unit with or without your knowledge, but remember that if they fall or break their leg etc, the owners are still vicariously liable to pay for the injuries.

These are the issues that most people dont think of ....

[fencer 0]

To share my latest discovery...

- Discovered that the paints (I HOPE is only the paints), part connecting the door frame to the wall, is starting to crack for all my 3 rooms.

- Master bedroom toilet's shower area drainage is not taking water fast enuf and would flood over to the basin side when bathing. (THIS MUST BE RECTIFIED). fyi. it is an additional drainage point added which is connected to the main drainage hole. Those going step down, pls be careful of drainage. Need to bath or on water at full blast to test..

Not to worry. In any case, u can counter-sue him.

Anyway, I agree anyone should listen to story from both sides before taking sides. But whatever said by both sides will be biased against the other party.

However, I will side with the owners as after all, I am also a owner renovating my own place. And photos speak a thousand words. If the pipe is crooked, it is crooked.

Thanks Mickey M..

For those who stil in the reno, i suggest u bring a voice recorder + camera everytime you go to check new hse.

If your contractor is going to talk the same way my contractor is and wasting your precious time, take out the recorder and record. I'm sure it would speed things up. Wic i should have done so can post online on the way my contractors talks..

Hey fencer, have you moved in yet? Mind showing us photos of your new home?

Hi hcbing, would move in only by end of May. lucky i added in 1 more month after the suppose 2 months of reno. Apparently is stil not enuf.

My fridge, washing machine, sofa, mattress etc is coming this weekend so what can only restrict the any rectification those empty places. Those tiles places wic would accumulate water (coz the tiles are placed lower then the rest), i guess i hv no chance but to accept it. Hope i dun nd to wash the floor with lots of water.. Ha..

I'll take pics to share next week bah.. after my sofa etc arrives.. hope dun hv problem with the furnitures.. *cross fingers*..