1960 Intermediate Terrace - A&a, Reconstruction Or Rebuild Costs?

[MetalTab 3]

Unfortunately no I don't earn enough to afford gold plated taps but what I want to comment is that the quality of his finishings and furnishings are top notch

10min drive to compare both places even though only exterior and you can tell

oh you have made it all the more enticing for me to drive down and take a look. OK, thursday I will do so! Maybe can chat up the owner to get some ideas

[kardtoon 0]

Hi all,

I am planning to rebuild (not reconstruct) my dad's place, which is 1800sqf in land area, an intermediate terrace. I am working with an architect now on the plans, but i feel that I should do my research and get my 5th and 6th opinion since it is a big ticket item.

What is the market rate now for payment to the architects? Is it 8% of the total construction cost? I have been told that there are one-stop shops which I can go to, which offer their inhouse architects and designers and they'll also do the contracting work for you, at a much lower cost.

Most of the contractors or designers I've approached, said that 600k is a do-able budget to build up to 2.5 storeys. However, a friend of mine told me that contractors usually earn 2 - 3 times of the actual cost. Which is why I am not surprised that the same could be done with 300k, provided you get $3 marbles and what not.

Do PM me your opinions on the contractors and architects you have all spoken to. There are too many out there. The most recently one I spoke with, started doing reno for HDBs and only came into this market in the last 2 yrs. I have a feeling that some of these contractors, once they have one or 2 outstanding projects, they'll just copy and paste that design and use it for their future clients...

I am still in the midst of selection, but i have a target date of march 2011 to start the tearing down.

8% for an architect is not uncommon (it's what I'm paying) for some of the more establised ones. I've heard that top firms can charge up to 12% but I've never verified it. However it is also possible to pay less. When checking out the architect, do look for a few things.

- Someone you feel you can trust. After all it's a long process.

- Look out for your interest... for me, that's looking for ways to save costs.

- you like the design and portfolio. I think that's an obvious one.

- What does the rate cover? Just design? Project management? QC work? Interior design? Submission work?

Someone I know engaged an architect for a low fee. They seldom see the architect, rarely comes to the site and they had to do all the submission work and work through kinks themselves.

Just my thoughts. For me, I more or less decided on the architect before I even went house hunting, so I had a lot of advice (what type of land to buy, what size/shape to maximise what I want to build to) and even an inspection before I signed on the line to buy the old place.

[citygirl 1]

My architect is charging me 10.75% of total construction cost. It includes everything from design to project management to design of interiors. Engineer and quantity surveyor appointed separately.

[kelsiah 0]

My architect is charging me 10.75% of total construction cost. It includes everything from design to project management to design of interiors. Engineer and quantity surveyor appointed separately.

hi,

my thoughts - if architect fees are variable, ie as % of total construction costs (this can be quite a subjective definition), why would he be aligned to help you save costs? The higher the construction costs, the higher his fees, right?

A moot point for discussion - should architect be remunerated on the basis of individual selection of materials? For example, choosing a marble that is S$15psf and S$20psf is an individual preference. Should an architect be remunerated on the basis of the owner choosing a S$100 tap @ Sim Siang Choon or a S$2000 tap @ Hansgrohe? I guess if one has the budget and no time at all to be involved in the project then its probably a good choice to leave everything to architect.

Note that its not a bed of roses. You can leave everything but the architect is not you. So the architect will never have a full appreciation of your likes and dislikes. At the end of the day, it will still come back to you.

I've left the post as open-ended - don't want to offend any architects out there. Afterall, they are professionals.

[pantieileen 2]

hmm...how come when i hire my architect and my builder no one said about percentage.

Here's my breakdown

Architect + PE = 22k

Builder + Quantity Surveyor = 345k

This means my architect charge me 6.38% consider cheap?

By the way, i did Reconstruction instead of A&A or erection. Is this standard rate?

[kardtoon 0]

hi,

my thoughts - if architect fees are variable, ie as % of total construction costs (this can be quite a subjective definition), why would he be aligned to help you save costs? The higher the construction costs, the higher his fees, right?

A moot point for discussion - should architect be remunerated on the basis of individual selection of materials? For example, choosing a marble that is S$15psf and S$20psf is an individual preference. Should an architect be remunerated on the basis of the owner choosing a S$100 tap @ Sim Siang Choon or a S$2000 tap @ Hansgrohe? I guess if one has the budget and no time at all to be involved in the project then its probably a good choice to leave everything to architect.

Note that its not a bed of roses. You can leave everything but the architect is not you. So the architect will never have a full appreciation of your likes and dislikes. At the end of the day, it will still come back to you.

I've left the post as open-ended - don't want to offend any architects out there. Afterall, they are professionals.

All valid points and some of these were my initial concerns. Hence I stressed that there must be trust. During the bidding process, my architect helped me to change the design and bargain until it meets my budget. When house hunting, we found some nice houses and he said to buynit but not to do anything more than simple Reno. These engendered trust with me and I thought his views were fair and balanced.

By the way, you would normally remove tiles, interior fittings out from contractual cost so the architect does not get more even if you choose expensive options. Actually in my case, they were all part of provisional sum so no cut for architect at all. Still he was involved in running around and helping me source good stuff.

[kardtoon 0]

hmm...how come when i hire my architect and my builder no one said about percentage.

Here's my breakdown

Architect + PE = 22k

Builder + Quantity Surveyor = 345k

This means my architect charge me 6.38% consider cheap?

By the way, i did Reconstruction instead of A&A or erection. Is this standard rate?

Hmm you paid your builder 345k for a reconstruction? Wow! That's super cheap. What does it not include?

[watchthewaves 0]

hmm...how come when i hire my architect and my builder no one said about percentage.

Here's my breakdown

Architect + PE = 22k

Builder + Quantity Surveyor = 345k

This means my architect charge me 6.38% consider cheap?

By the way, i did Reconstruction instead of A&A or erection. Is this standard rate?

Some go by percentage, some go by fixed fee.

As for whether your total cost is "standard", assuming "average" finishings, depends on your GFA. What will it be? Also, like kardtoon mentioned, you have to let us know what's excluded too.

[kardtoon 0]

hmm...how come when i hire my architect and my builder no one said about percentage.

Here's my breakdown

Architect + PE = 22k

Builder + Quantity Surveyor = 345k

This means my architect charge me 6.38% consider cheap?

By the way, i did Reconstruction instead of A&A or erection. Is this standard rate?

Another point to consider.... for 22k, you have an architect and PE will to work on your house for more than a year (including planning and building)?? They must then be running a lot of concurrent projects to make any money. Hope you stipulated in your contract how many times he/she will appear on the site, what he will and will not do.

[MetalTab 3]

IMO I think it's a personal thing to go for rebuilding or A&A.

What are your expectations?

Can you live in a house with external facade that is 30yr old?

How much space do you need?

How many rooms are there in the existing house?

Eg. 3rooms, 2 humans, 1 dog? then maybe A&A enough.

Eg. 3rooms 5adults, 4dogs then please go and tear and rebuild?

If you want estimates, drive along my neighborhood St Patrick's Road see this house newly build semi D beside Grand Hotel (since i never mention exact address should be ok right). Look for the most awful semi D only 4there lah quite easy to spot even if its new. You think nice? Got lift inside, carpark big big can park maybe 6cars.

Total reconstruction cost 750k cheap right but u think nice?

Then u drive abit further to Jalan Sotong look at a 3storey intermediate terrace house? Carpark very small park 2cars if you squeeze 1 vintage merc + 1 mini

Total reconstruction cost 750k without lift

You pay peanuts for peanuts, almond for almond

What i'm trying to say is, you just mention ok terrace house 2300sqft land build in 2400sqft ok good size to start with but you also never mention what is your expectations?

you want cheap cheap material do A&A 250k also can do something decent. What kind of materials you want to use? Homogeneous? My neighbor only spent 150k for A&A and she uses laminate for her kitchen floor and homogeneous tiles for her living room still can stay still ensuite. Her terrace she just paint the floor no tiles no nothing, is this what you desire?

But just to let you know when contractors budget 350k they actually mean please prepare 400-450k, 750k then please prepare 900k in total coz alot of extras?

If i were u, i'll just buy the house if i like it coz a desired location is hard to come by. Buy it and slowly do, money will fall from somewhere (ok maybe just based on my simplistic mind someone who eat less rice than others here who eat more salt) but i probably experienced more house moving than others here

Took a drive just - agree pay peanuts get peanuts. But think here it's one man's meat, another man's poison. Qualifier is that I saw both from the outside, so truly external facade comparison only. Semi-D is still under construction; while inter is with white gate - so hope we are talking about same 2 houses.

I frankly thought that the semi-D is better done. Cleaner, more modern. And for the land area differential, the semi-D would have gotten a better deal in stretching the 750k.

And I did bring 2 sets of builder/architects to the house.

Wow the 1st one gave a ballpark of "500k to 600k" - to extend front and back walls to 1st and 2nd floors, add attic. Basically increasing built-in from 2450 to 3300. (oh and when i parted with this builder, i went off in an old Japanese car and he zoomed off in a brand new 7 series ...) And I remembered all the advice given that "500 to 600k" means prepare to pay more than that Whatever's left of saving grace is that we did not discuss material and finishings... but he did mutter that construction alone will be about $250k.

The 2nd architect still got to push some buttons and revert after new year...

[petunialee 4]

Took a drive just - agree pay peanuts get peanuts. But think here it's one man's meat, another man's poison. Qualifier is that I saw both from the outside, so truly external facade comparison only. Semi-D is still under construction; while inter is with white gate - so hope we are talking about same 2 houses.

I frankly thought that the semi-D is better done. Cleaner, more modern. And for the land area differential, the semi-D would have gotten a better deal in stretching the 750k.

And I did bring 2 sets of builder/architects to the house.

Wow the 1st one gave a ballpark of "500k to 600k" - to extend front and back walls to 1st and 2nd floors, add attic. Basically increasing built-in from 2450 to 3300. (oh and when i parted with this builder, i went off in an old Japanese car and he zoomed off in a brand new 7 series ...) And I remembered all the advice given that "500 to 600k" means prepare to pay more than that Whatever's left of saving grace is that we did not discuss material and finishings... but he did mutter that construction alone will be about $250k.

The 2nd architect still got to push some buttons and revert after new year...

My semi-detached reconstruction from footings up to 3rd storey is less than 550K. However, costs vary greatly if you need micro-piling. Micropiles can push costs up by between 30K (my neighbour down the road) and 60K (a friend who lives in the East). If your house is in the East where soil quality is softer than in the North and West of Singapore, you will need to budget for piling. Anyhow, the structural engineer will carry out a soil test and budget accordingly.

Best is to run a closed and confidential tender with builders that you have pre-interviewed for quality of work, management effectiveness and a good portfolio. You can ring on their ex-clients' doors and ask. The building process is a long one. You want a contractor who is easy to talk to and understanding of your needs and wants.

The first "informal" quote I received was 700K to 800K for the exact same specified materials. My demolition cost alone (for an old single storey) in that informal quote was double what my friend paid to demolish her single storey. When I ran a confidential tender, the costs were very different. The Quantity Surveyor will tabulate each item for you so you can compare item by item to catch big differences.

However, don't go for contractor price alone... all the contractors you invite to tender should already be people you don't mind working with. Then, during the tender, you assess price alone.

Most people would advise a flat rate architect. A percentage of contract fee incentivises the architect to help contractor balloon costs so that he can earn more. Of course, there is such a thing as professional integrity but why put in an incentive that is against your interests?

Edited December 31, 2010 by petunialee

[pantieileen 2]

Hmm you paid your builder 345k for a reconstruction? Wow! That's super cheap. What does it not include?

Excluding SCV new cables, PUB upgrade, carpentry (kitchen and wardrobe), toilet fittings (but include the glass shower screen), lights, BCA, URA submissions

Include GST

I didn't call for tender based on my instincts

Edited December 31, 2010 by pantieileen

[pantieileen 2]

Another point to consider.... for 22k, you have an architect and PE will to work on your house for more than a year (including planning and building)?? They must then be running a lot of concurrent projects to make any money. Hope you stipulated in your contract how many times he/she will appear on the site, what he will and will not do.

Not sure, i'm not even at the site myself only in town for 2weeks per month but i contacted 3architects prior to picking mine.

Eliminated the first coz constantly not picking up phone

Eliminated 2nd one coz wanted me to pay 24k in advance for my project before he draw anything

So left with the 3rd coz service was good, humble, stated ok terms 40% on submission of documents to URA/BCA etc 50% (duno when) 10% upon completion

[pantieileen 2]

Took a drive just - agree pay peanuts get peanuts. But think here it's one man's meat, another man's poison. Qualifier is that I saw both from the outside, so truly external facade comparison only. Semi-D is still under construction; while inter is with white gate - so hope we are talking about same 2 houses.

I frankly thought that the semi-D is better done. Cleaner, more modern. And for the land area differential, the semi-D would have gotten a better deal in stretching the 750k.

And I did bring 2 sets of builder/architects to the house.

Wow the 1st one gave a ballpark of "500k to 600k" - to extend front and back walls to 1st and 2nd floors, add attic. Basically increasing built-in from 2450 to 3300. (oh and when i parted with this builder, i went off in an old Japanese car and he zoomed off in a brand new 7 series ...) And I remembered all the advice given that "500 to 600k" means prepare to pay more than that Whatever's left of saving grace is that we did not discuss material and finishings... but he did mutter that construction alone will be about $250k.

The 2nd architect still got to push some buttons and revert after new year...

Actually the SemiD is done already they already moved in but i was told the TOP was late (then again this is normal). I thought the design was more cold (and i thot color scheme abit funny, purple and grey/black)

Both owners of the terrace, semi D and my place are original owners so we are all only paying for construction thats all

[kardtoon 0]

Excluding SCV new cables, PUB upgrade, carpentry (kitchen and wardrobe), toilet fittings (but include the glass shower screen), lights, BCA, URA submissions

Include GST

I didn't call for tender based on my instincts

Not sure of the GFA for your recon, but it does seem that 345k is cheap. What do you reckon is the total move in cost inclusive of fees, all fittings, wardrobes, tiling, painting, landscaping, excluding loose furniture and electronics/appliances.