Water Filters

[potat0 0]

Not sure if I will get bashed for posting this or not but this is what I came across and thought might be good to share.

http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=198&title=Alkaline_Water_Hoax_-_It_Is_Simple_Science.

Basically, this website is saying Alkaline Water ionizer is a hoax and they themselves are selling quite a number of water filter systems.

The "acid water" collection thing is also putting me back on going for Jupiter and the price also.

Looks like I'm back to square one and will probably be looking for something ultra filtration and yet will not filter away the minerals in water.

I'm looking at Cleansui at the moment.

Edited October 30, 2012 by potat0

[dragonnite 2]

Not sure if I will get bashed for posting this or not but this is what I came across and thought might be good to share.

http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=198&title=Alkaline_Water_Hoax_-_It_Is_Simple_Science.

Basically, this website is saying Alkaline Water ionizer is a hoax and they themselves are selling quite a number of water filter systems.

The "acid water" collection thing is also putting me back on going for Jupiter and the price also.

Looks like I'm back to square one and will probably be looking for something ultra filtration and yet will not filter away the minerals in water.

I'm looking at Cleansui at the moment.

Interesting article. Now I'm even more confused.

Out of curiosity, how much is Cleansui ? And how much would the replacement filters cost, do you know ?

[potat0 0]

Interesting article. Now I'm even more confused.

Out of curiosity, how much is Cleansui ? And how much would the replacement filters cost, do you know ?

You can see the pricing from their website:

http://www.btbtrading.com/cleansui/product/undersink.html

This is their undersink series. From the looks of it, it's 1 cartridge of multiple filters.

I did some reading up to try and understand water filter system.

I've used Diamond water before and in that counter-top unit, there's like 6 filters in them. The reason why my family stopped using it was that we find it quite difficult to keep track on which filter is due for replacement.

Then we switched back to something that was really old school, a gravity feed water filter system that looks like this:

It uses 1 cartridge like the cleansui system but it takes up space on the counter.

I'll find out how much does it cost to maintain the cleansui system and update. I've also enquired about the Watts® Kwik-Change™ Cartridge Reverse Osmosis System. The only issue I have about that is the number of filters is about the same as diamond water system and the faucet is a tad ugly to me.

[dragonnite 2]

Ah, I checked the pricing of the undersink versions : from $999 - 2399. And the setup is for a separate drinking tap from the countertop, without the need for the acidic water discharge collection point.

I actually think that if you're going for pure filtration, Hyflux could be a good bet too. Dunno about their filter replacement cycles though, in terms of running costs. Their gurgle tap is ugly though ...

[gkbt 8]

Hi gkbt,

I'm very new to this water filter, water ionizer and all the facts are making me see stars after reading the 8 pages.

Basically I just shifted into a few flat since Feb and recently the fb grp member of my hdb project posted the colour of his filter (changed at 3 mths) and I'm very alarmed its brown, like rust. My concern is how much of the brown substance (is it rust?) my 1 yr old son has drank

I didn't expect our water quality to be such and on hindsight we fixed a faucet that can spray as well as normal flow so its got a big head and it seems like those fixed on tap is not suitable for me (unless we change the faucet). My friend was telling me she uses the one from KEMP but its got a unit on the table top, I would like to get a simple filter to rid the brown stuff (ionized water is a plus but not a must) may I have your recommendation plse?

Thanks!

Hi narf,

Generally if your tap is the odd type like a spray or normal water option, then IMHO all filter attached to your tap is out of the question.

If you do not need a ionizer go for under sink filter systems that will produce water through the top via a thin faucet (brands that come to mind.... Diamond, hyflux, 3m and Swiss pro)

But do bear in mind the filter recurring cost and the micron filtration capability (look for 0.01m filters will be the best) other than just the immediate cost.

I just saw a demonstration of a 0.01m filter in action recently and man it removes even ink which filters at 0.1m can't... So look for 0.01m

Cheers...

[gkbt 8]

Not sure if I will get bashed for posting this or not but this is what I came across and thought might be good to share.

http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=198&title=Alkaline_Water_Hoax_-_It_Is_Simple_Science.

Basically, this website is saying Alkaline Water ionizer is a hoax and they themselves are selling quite a number of water filter systems.

The "acid water" collection thing is also putting me back on going for Jupiter and the price also.

Looks like I'm back to square one and will probably be looking for something ultra filtration and yet will not filter away the minerals in water.

I'm looking at Cleansui at the moment.

Hi potat0 n dragonite,

Interesting article, coming from a science perspective, I must say this article is focused to downgrade ionizers and up sell their filters.

There are just too many point to talk about and thus let me just focus on 1

Our stomach are acidic that's correct, however there are times and period in the day / night that the acidity are lower or higher. Drinking alkaline will not ALKALIZE your body, however its the bi product that will.. Sounds complicated? Just read on and humor me,

Acidity is produced by using certain "ingredients" such as water, carbon dioxide n salt (sodium / potassium chloride) etc the end result is hydrochloric acid for the stomach and a bicarbonate as "waste" this waste is released into the blood and this is what ppl call an "alkaline tide". This results in a person being alert when consuming food as acid is needed to break down food yet the bicarbonate (alkaline) residue helps increase oxygen intake while in the blood stream.

Since I can't sleep lets carry on with some extra information, the article simply gloss over certain facts. Alkaline ionized water is classified a a medical substance and systems that produced such water a medical device, since 1965 (Japan Ministry of health n welfare) reassessed again as recent at 1994 (Japan) and 1970s (Korea by the KFDA) The article checked with sources that are in the western world yet none from Japan nor Korea. The treatment using alkaline ionized water is targeted at gastrointestinal conditions and is prescribed by doctors in Japan and Korea.

The article further mentions the fact that such system that produces alkaline ionized water do no benefits to the consumer yet insist that alkaline food should balance acidic foods. It's akin to saying take your fruits n vegs they contain vitamins but taking vitamins supplements is bad for you because vitamin supplements company want to earn your money.....

Furthermore the author uses scientific articles from japan to "sums" up the argument of alkaline ionized water's negativity. However before this the author argues that the land of the rising sun engages in beliefs of "writing Japanese words on the outside of a glass of water, or playing music near this glass of water will change the physical characteristics of the water in the glass to the point where the water can actually provide curative effects for the body". This author failed to provide the same scientific journals that showed positive evidence of such water.

If this was truly a cover up by governments of Japan and Korea then this cover up is truly amazing. one can view evidence of national TV stations airing documentaries of "kangen" water and numerous doctors acknowledgment of such benefits from YouTube and other streaming media.

I have not provided links in this comment but if you are looking for such links, i believe it's somewhere in this 8 pages but if u can't find it pm me I'll send u the links.

Remember in science there is never only one side of the coin, however its through asking and researching that one truly finds what he is looking for.

Cheers

Edited October 30, 2012 by gkbt

[potat0 0]

Thanks for your input gkbt. I'm still not very convinced that Alkaline Ionizer is really essential and the health benefits claims are not exactly well proven to me as well.

However, I do feel that water filtration does help. There are other research that kind of made sense to me as in, our bodies cannot take really pure water like what is being used in the science labs. Minerals in the water do play a part in what our body needs. So there's a need to strike a balance on finding a water filtration system that does the job but not to the extend to make the water too pure for consumption.

Went to check out what is available off the shelf and came across that majority of the products in the market talks about the number of plate used for applying electrolysis to the water to produce alkaline water and it also goes through a filter system. I'll go back to point on my focus, which is just to get a water filter system without the alkaline portion.

In general, systems with the electrolysis will:

1. Need a power source to run (added cost)
   
2. For every "X" amount of alkaline water produced, "X" amount of acidic water is produced (added cost again even though you can use the acidic water for other purposes but end of the day, it makes a user consume more water and I personally feel, it alters the water usage behaviour)
   

That's the added cost portion and it usually cost about $500 to $1,000 more than a system with just water filtration. Although the filters for alkaline water systems are usually cheaper, the start up cost is pretty much higher.

So all in all, it's a rather apple to orange comparison. But cost of running is definitely higher for one that produces alkaline water as compared to a solely water filter system.

So back to water filter system. Before I go on, I'm focused on only systems installed undersink and with a separate faucet to dispense the water. Generally in the market, there are:

• Water Filter attached to regular taps (Will not work with those with chef mixers)
  
• Gravity feed water filter system. Can be big like store around 10 litres or small like a 1 to 2 litre flask
  
• Counter top ( This sits on your counter top with a little faucet to dispense the water out)
  
• Undersink type with a faucet installed near your sink.
  

I'm only interested in the last type as my countertop does not have much space, so i'll just talk about that in this post.

Some brands I am looking at are:

• Cleansui A101ZC
  
• Watts Kwik-Change™ Cartridge Reverse Osmosis System
  
• 3M DWS2500T
  
• Ultrapure Undersink(local made)
  
• Hyflux HF1P-3AA or HF1P-3S
  

So in general, they are from Japan (Cleansui), US (Watts & 3M) and local (Ultrapure and Hyflux)

I realised the US and Hyflux are similar in their cartridges. They have about 2 to 3 different cartridges for 1 system. According to their spec sheets, it can filter between 3,800 to 5,800 liters of water and their cartridges generally have 2 types of lifespan. One is 3 to 6 months. The other is 6 months to 12 months.

Some comes with electronic counter to monitor and advise on change. That's good.

So, as for the rest, it's 1 huge cartridge that is a combination of pretty much the same function as the multiple cartridge system. Spec sheet put it that this cartirdge can last up to 12 months.

This is up to user preference. No right or wrong I guess. For me, I'll go for single cartridge as having experienced using multiple cartidge, I confirm will forget what is supposed to be changed.

Running costs in summary, 3M is probably the most expensive with the low capacity of about 3,000 litres of water filtered and with a start up cost of around $1.5k (rounded up). Others range from $400++ to about $1k as their start up. Filter replacement range from $150++ to about $300 for those systems. I'm not sure about 3M's replacement filter price though.

End of the day, my decision is to go for Cleansui as a better established brand and it runs on single cartridge. A close 2nd is actually Ultrapure for its price.

[gkbt 8]

Thanks for your input gkbt. I'm still not very convinced that Alkaline Ionizer is really essential and the health benefits claims are not exactly well proven to me as well.

However, I do feel that water filtration does help. There are other research that kind of made sense to me as in, our bodies cannot take really pure water like what is being used in the science labs. Minerals in the water do play a part in what our body needs. So there's a need to strike a balance on finding a water filtration system that does the job but not to the extend to make the water too pure for consumption.

Went to check out what is available off the shelf and came across that majority of the products in the market talks about the number of plate used for applying electrolysis to the water to produce alkaline water and it also goes through a filter system. I'll go back to point on my focus, which is just to get a water filter system without the alkaline portion.

In general, systems with the electrolysis will:

1. Need a power source to run (added cost)
   
2. For every "X" amount of alkaline water produced, "X" amount of acidic water is produced (added cost again even though you can use the acidic water for other purposes but end of the day, it makes a user consume more water and I personally feel, it alters the water usage behaviour)
   

That's the added cost portion and it usually cost about $500 to $1,000 more than a system with just water filtration. Although the filters for alkaline water systems are usually cheaper, the start up cost is pretty much higher.

So all in all, it's a rather apple to orange comparison. But cost of running is definitely higher for one that produces alkaline water as compared to a solely water filter system.

So back to water filter system. Before I go on, I'm focused on only systems installed undersink and with a separate faucet to dispense the water. Generally in the market, there are:

• Water Filter attached to regular taps (Will not work with those with chef mixers)
  
• Gravity feed water filter system. Can be big like store around 10 litres or small like a 1 to 2 litre flask
  
• Counter top ( This sits on your counter top with a little faucet to dispense the water out)
  
• Undersink type with a faucet installed near your sink.
  

I'm only interested in the last type as my countertop does not have much space, so i'll just talk about that in this post.

Some brands I am looking at are:

• Cleansui A101ZC
  
• Watts Kwik-Change™ Cartridge Reverse Osmosis System
  
• 3M DWS2500T
  
• Ultrapure Undersink(local made)
  
• Hyflux HF1P-3AA or HF1P-3S
  

So in general, they are from Japan (Cleansui), US (Watts & 3M) and local (Ultrapure and Hyflux)

I realised the US and Hyflux are similar in their cartridges. They have about 2 to 3 different cartridges for 1 system. According to their spec sheets, it can filter between 3,800 to 5,800 liters of water and their cartridges generally have 2 types of lifespan. One is 3 to 6 months. The other is 6 months to 12 months.

Some comes with electronic counter to monitor and advise on change. That's good.

So, as for the rest, it's 1 huge cartridge that is a combination of pretty much the same function as the multiple cartridge system. Spec sheet put it that this cartirdge can last up to 12 months.

This is up to user preference. No right or wrong I guess. For me, I'll go for single cartridge as having experienced using multiple cartidge, I confirm will forget what is supposed to be changed.

Running costs in summary, 3M is probably the most expensive with the low capacity of about 3,000 litres of water filtered and with a start up cost of around $1.5k (rounded up). Others range from $400++ to about $1k as their start up. Filter replacement range from $150++ to about $300 for those systems. I'm not sure about 3M's replacement filter price though.

End of the day, my decision is to go for Cleansui as a better established brand and it runs on single cartridge. A close 2nd is actually Ultrapure for its price.

Hi Potat0,

Just to let you know a few things, electrical cost is less than $2.00 a month (of cost not included a power point if you need to install 1)

In regards to the ratio, I get roughly 60 - 70% alkaline while about 30 - 40% acidic which I use immediately at the end of the day to wash up my dishes. This methods save water rather than waste it but you have to use it if not its wasted. It does alter behavior pattern such as to remember to use the acid water rather than use tap water to wash dishes up.

Cost of water ionizer is not that expensive. When I bought my 1st system it cost about $1.3k, A diamond water system cost 1.6k then, so pricing is very dependent and variable.

If you are still considering filter, the cleansui and Hyflux filters are the most cost effective with multiple outlets to buy filters when they run out. However remember to change them regularly if not the water produced from the filter will become acidic in nature due to bacteria trapped inside it.

Btw did you explore swiss pro? the cost of the system + filters are quite cheap if I did not recall wrongly.

Cheers

Edited November 18, 2012 by gkbt

[fluxman 0]

Got mine and my brother home installed. It is install under the sink with a faucet of its own at the basin.

It can dispense Hot&Cool water and it is filtrated.

Edited November 6, 2012 by fluxman

[lot85 0]

Anyone use Buffalo water filter marketed by Song Cho? Fully stainless steel with lifetime warranty. Any feedbacks?

[Vienta93 0]

Hi Potat0,

Just to let you know a few things, electrical cost is less than $2.00 a month (of cost not included a power point if you need to install 1)

In regards to the ratio, I get roughly 60 - 70% alkaline while about 30 - 40% acidic which I use immediately at the end of the day to wash up my dishes. This methods save water rather than waste it but you have to use it if not its wasted. It does alter behavior pattern such as to remember to use the acid water rather than use tap water to wash dishes up.

Cost of water ionizer is not that expensive. When I bought my 1st system it cost about $1.3k, A diamond water system cost 1.6k then, so pricing is very dependent and variable.

If you are still considering filter, the cleansui and Hyflux filters are the most cost effective with multiple outlets to buy filters when they run out. However remember to change them regularly if not the water produced from the filter will become acidic in nature due to bacteria trapped inside it.

Btw did you explore swiss pro? the cost of the system + filters are quite cheap if I did not recall wrongly.

Cheers

Hi gkbt, I had bought the jupiter alpion last year. Had been drinking at level 2. Recently my father passed me this article.

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/ALKA.%20WATER.htm

It got me worried because this article mentions platinum and titanium poisoning. It makes sense as if you stored water in a metal container. The metal would leech into the water.

This will be more pronounced if there is electrical current running +\- charge thru it. Like electroplating concept.

Also , Jupiter system has the patented self cleaning system where by it switches from +/- every 20 secs on 1 plate. They told me there is a flow diverter to divert only + water to the nozzle. But I don't see any drop in flow rate which is common to valves switching so I am very skeptical.

[gkbt 8]

Hi gkbt, I had bought the jupiter alpion last year. Had been drinking at level 2. Recently my father passed me this article.

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/ALKA.%20WATER.htm

It got me worried because this article mentions platinum and titanium poisoning. It makes sense as if you stored water in a metal container. The metal would leech into the water.

This will be more pronounced if there is electrical current running +\- charge thru it. Like electroplating concept.

Also , Jupiter system has the patented self cleaning system where by it switches from +/- every 20 secs on 1 plate. They told me there is a flow diverter to divert only + water to the nozzle. But I don't see any drop in flow rate which is common to valves switching so I am very skeptical.

Dear Vienta,

Interesting article, however it errs on many points, i will address the points you have made only as i have not much time to post a full reply

1) metal leeching is much rarer than chemical leeching therefore its actually safer storing yr drinking water in a glass or metallic container. Remember your water pipes? They are mainly copper, U dont see copper residue in your water do you?

2) platinium metal DOES NOT cause poisoning, its the salt that may have a genotoxicity effect. Even then it will have to be extremely over the limit. (Small sea creatures exposed to 100-200ug/l of PtCl showed signs of mutation) translating to roughly 50-100ug/g to cause this effect. For an adult male of 70kg u need 7x1000x100/ 1000000 = 0.7g or 700mg of PtCl. Even miners of platinum get only 2ug/g (14mg) exposure and have no symptoms.

3) titanium DOES NOT cause poisoning too. Think of all the screws n metal pieces for fractures, matching bone pieces for hip replacements... What are they made of? Titanium... If it was poison... Alot of people would have been in serious trouble.

4) if u are talking about valves then it depends what u are comparing too. A washing machine have a valve that stops or allow water to flow. But for the alphion cleaning, there is no need to stop water flow so the switch is immediate and rarely u feel or hear anything. But if u switch to purified water it should stop and change like what washing machine will do.

Below is 2 articles for your viewing, actually if you are concern about platinum poisoning, the car catalyst is a better bet than the water ionizer.... However its still quite far fetch to say you can get poisoned by platinum, afterall the MOH of Japan approved water ionizers maded with platinum & titanium since 1965 and reassessed it again in 1993. If there were issues, it would be very pronounced in Japan and Korea since alot of people are already drinking the water for such system.

http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/pt.htm

http://www.justanswer.com/medical/353ts-symptoms-consistent-platinum-poisoning.html

Cheers

Edited February 14, 2013 by gkbt

[ziztine 0]

Hi gkbt,

I am looking for an RO system which removes fluoride on top of the chlorine, bacteria.... What do you think of the following:

Aquaphor Morion Reverse Osmosis

$1,188.00

http://healthquest.com.sg/collections/home-water-filters/products/aquaphor-morion

100% fluoride removal they claim.

It is Russian made and follows the Russian standard GOST R 51872-2002 which is equivalent if not higher than NSF standards 42 and 53. Recently, the Morion system was NSF certified in the US.

Mineralization takes place after the RO process to replace the minerals.

Since most RO uses a lot of water, this system claims to reduce that wastage:

"Due to efficient storage tank membrane and valve system, Morion remains the ratio of wasted-to-filtered water below 4:1 no matter how much water there is in the tank and how high is the pressure in water supply. For traditional RO purifiers with air-on-water storage tank this ratio varies between 10 and 15 at approx. 3 atm pressure and grows towards the end of tank fulfillment. Given the fact that we usually use 1-2 liters of filtered water at a time, Morion, saves you up to 50% or 9000 liters of water a year."

Any comments is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[gkbt 8]

Hi gkbt,

I am looking for an RO system which removes fluoride on top of the chlorine, bacteria.... What do you think of the following:

Aquaphor Morion Reverse Osmosis

$1,188.00

http://healthquest.com.sg/collections/home-water-filters/products/aquaphor-morion

100% fluoride removal they claim.

It is Russian made and follows the Russian standard GOST R 51872-2002 which is equivalent if not higher than NSF standards 42 and 53. Recently, the Morion system was NSF certified in the US.

Mineralization takes place after the RO process to replace the minerals.

Since most RO uses a lot of water, this system claims to reduce that wastage:

"Due to efficient storage tank membrane and valve system, Morion remains the ratio of wasted-to-filtered water below 4:1 no matter how much water there is in the tank and how high is the pressure in water supply. For traditional RO purifiers with air-on-water storage tank this ratio varies between 10 and 15 at approx. 3 atm pressure and grows towards the end of tank fulfillment. Given the fact that we usually use 1-2 liters of filtered water at a time, Morion, saves you up to 50% or 9000 liters of water a year."

Any comments is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Hi ziztine,

So sorry for not being active in the forum for the longest of time. Been extremely busy with work.

Ok hope this get to you.

Always think about the cost of owning a system with some questions I always ask myself.

Technology Vs Technology

1) Do they give you something which others don't?

2) Does this "something" mean alot to you or is can be passable?

3) Is there any evidence to back it up?

4) Any health benefits to show for?

Company Vs Company

1) Quality of the systems

2) Availability of parts and services

3) Cost of part and services

4) Reputation of Agent / Supplier / Factory

5) Local certifications with foreign certifications

Honestly I am not the greatest fan of Distillation nor RO system for the matter they actually not only have:

1) Possible high upfront cost

2) Possible high recurring cost (replacement of part / filters)

3) Possible high electrical cost

4) Lack of health benefits and possible causing health deficiencies due to demineralization

5) Waste of water (R.O):- Depends on technology available

In general, most if not all RO systems now comes with optional mineralization cartridge. So if you are looking for clean water with minerals then this should be fine. Mineral filters do have a lifespan and since they have to make the water balance you might want to proactively monitor that the water does not fall back to the acidic side.

Since its Russian made, do make sure the company here is able to support and have been in the market for a while now. As R.O systems tend to require extensively servicing after a few years of usage, the parts should be readily available and affordable. Wastage of water is also a major concern of R.O system do ask them how much waste water (in ml) do you get per glass of water e.g 250ml. Another concern is the speed of water collection, as R.O take a long time to filter through, quantity is very important to users.

We can be wowed by words or jargon but do try to see the system in action before deciding. If they do not have a working model for test, you already have your answer.

I hope the above helps!

Cheers

*If you are able to allow minute fluoride in the mater (trace amounts) then choose filtration as they will be able to remove bacteria and chlorine to non detectable amounts. I personally tend to stick to alkaline ionized water as they not only filter extensively but provide the sustainable health benefits as endorsed by MOH in Japan.

Edited June 19, 2013 by gkbt

[ziztine 0]

Hi gkbt,

Thanks so much for detailed reply. Really appreciate it

I was not aware that RO systems uses electricity. I must ask them about that.