Selecting A Good Design Firm / Id

[BlueFly 0]

Hi All:

I benefited from the sharing of other forumers in renovating their apartment, particularly their experience -- good and bad -- with their ID / contractor, and wish to pass on what I've learned and / or gained from my own experience working with a specific design firm and the ID.

My primary motivation is to assist those seeking to renovate their beloved apartment for the first time, particularly as several forumers have shared horror stories of their renovation work outcome. To them I can only empathize, and thanked them for their sharing because I too benefited from their (bad) experience.

So I will tell it all -- where praise is warranted I will say it like it is, but where problems were encountered, I will not spare criticism, because in any renovation work there will always be issues and problems. It is how the ID / owner resolved the issue / problem that will determine the renovation outcome.

I have informed the ID of my intentions, and has his permission to tell it all, warts and acclaim, if warranted. He was game enough to permit me carte-blanche.

My ID was [ edited out on 2nd thought to make this a general posting and not a recommendation of a specific ID or firm ]. Of the 5 contenders for my job, he was my last choice () and how I ended up with him is another story.

But to start off, I will jump right in, and share how I managed to save some money engaging an independent paint contractor instead of waiting for my ID to do the painting / plastering after LNY.

It was a gamble that paid off.

http://renovation-greencoal.blogspot.com/2...-paint-job.html.

Edited February 18, 2008 by BlueFly

[BlueFly 0]

This post deals with the preliminaries / preparation and choosing an ID / Contractor to handle your renovation.

Read forumers' postings to get an overview

============================

First, go through this forum to read through experiences shared by forumers with their ID / Contractor. Get a good sense of the problems faced by flat owners when dealing with their ID and the standard of workmanship available / expected from photos posted by forumers.

Be aware that some ID posed as owners to "entice" business from forumers seeking IDs or contractors, giving generally unashamedly strong recommendation on this ID or that ID. When you read these postings you can generally guess whether the recommendation is genuine or not. Why? Well, no ID or contractor is ever as good as some forumers have made them out to be. Almost all renovation works will encounter mistakes or the owner generally will have some unhappiness with the ID, hence any posting that praises an ID to the skies is generally suspect, in my books.

In my case, I decided to get a quote from an ID from this forum last Nov / Dec (you can search for that post), although I had felt the post could possibly be a self-promotion attempt, either by the ID himself or by his friend / colleague posing as an ex-client. So why did I still decide to get a quote from him?

Well, simply because the popular IDs recommended in the forum were being "chased" by almost everyone else and it took too long for me to get a timely response to my request for quotations &/or discussions from these IDs.

So I gave the newbie ID a try. After all, every ID needs a start on this forum, and I could give him a chance as I had some prior experience dealing with contractors and IDs in my work.

Next, prepare checklist and questions you may have

==================================

You should also prepare a list of questions you may have that you want to ask the ID. Further, you should have an idea of what you want for your renovation. Could be as simple as "I want a total makeover" or "I want to hack this wall to enlarge the living space", etc. Have some preliminary idea of what you want done before you contact the ID for quotations.

When I ask for a quotation, my prepared checklist of work I want done follows the same format (as amended to suit my own needs) given by most contractors/IDs when they submit their quotes. This way it is easy to make comparisons as how much each ID quote for e.g. "hacking the wall" or "Supply & lay homogeneous tiles to Living Room", etc.

Third, shortlist 4-5 IDs to obtain quotes

==========================

Once you have a shortlist of 4-5, contact them for their quotation, either by email or in person. I drop those IDs who don't respond within a week, depending on how much I want him to handle my job e.g. give longer time for one who was genuinely recommended by people you know. I also drop those IDs who don't seem to be "hungry" for my job. Or who came across as "busy", "loftiness" or "exclusivity", because the truly good IDs -- in my experience -- are usually humble and down-to-earth.

Depending on the rapport you establish with the IDs, you may also ask to take a look at his actual work done for other clients, whether on-going or completed. That would give me an idea of his competence. [Note: This step should never be left out once the ID has given you his quotation.]

Some IDs only give you a show-around of his projects after you have accepted his quote, although some (the more confident Ids) may be willing to do that before you sign on the dotted line.

Bottom-line: Always ask to see an ID's work, whether he has been highly recommended or not. See for yourself the standard of workmanship done. Ask to see not only one job site but a few, to guard against "passing-off".

Generally if the owner of the flat is around when you see the project, you could ask the owner for his/her opinion of the ID too.

Next post: How do you protect yourself against unscrupulous ID/Contractor?

Edited February 18, 2008 by BlueFly

[skyryen 0]

Hi Bluefly

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm also looking forward to renovating my new premium 4rm flat (just got keys last Dec).

This forum is a great resource and I'm still learning. So far I have approached 1 contractor and 4 IDs. Still waiting for quotes and also looking ard. I can only pray that my reno experience will work out well and not turn into nightmares that I have read so much here.

Hence the safer route I think is to go for those "tried and tested" ones. I would agree to drop if the ID is not hungry for my business or is not responsive. If now already bo chap me , I wonder how it will be like if I engaged their services. Maybe my 20k budget is really too small fry?!. Hmm.....

Please share with me your "checklist and format" for quotes that you have so that I can try to speak their language and the sort of questions I should be asking them.

If possible, can PM me your current ID too pls? All help is welcomed!

Great tips. I will look forward to your next post. Thanks!

[BlueFly 0]

Aiyo, Skyrren, I just saw yr post today 16-Mar-08 -- alamak -- because I didn't check back on the thread. A thousand apologies

PM sent on ID's contact.

Give me some time to share more thoughts / impressions on my renovation as I ran into problems recently,

- with the movers (had to use 3 different movers),

- was locked in for 6 hrs in my MBR and had to call police / civil defence for help (not a fault of the contractor but the lockset, more on that story later),

- waited for several weeks for the windows contractor to change the old iron windows in my toilet & bathroom, without which tilers and plumber could not complete their works.

I will put up my format, checklist, etc (and maybe this post) on my blog later, and to ensure I don't lose track of it!

Let me know if you need other assistance.

Hi Bluefly

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm also looking forward to renovating my new premium 4rm flat (just got keys last Dec).

This forum is a great resource and I'm still learning. So far I have approached 1 contractor and 4 IDs. Still waiting for quotes and also looking ard. I can only pray that my reno experience will work out well and not turn into nightmares that I have read so much here.

Hence the safer route I think is to go for those "tried and tested" ones. I would agree to drop if the ID is not hungry for my business or is not responsive. If now already bo chap me , I wonder how it will be like if I engaged their services. Maybe my 20k budget is really too small fry?!. Hmm.....

Please share with me your "checklist and format" for quotes that you have so that I can try to speak their language and the sort of questions I should be asking them.

If possible, can PM me your current ID too pls? All help is welcomed!

Great tips. I will look forward to your next post. Thanks!

Edited March 16, 2008 by BlueFly

[BlueFly 0]

How do you protect yourself against unscrupulous ID/Contractor?

Visiting an ID's work at his on-going project site(s) and seeing for yourself the quality of the work done is at best a comfort, but not a guarantee, that he will produce good workmanship for your renovation, for the foll reasons:

(1) the sub-con team he used for the work you have just seen may not be available for your renovation,

(2) most IDs / Contractors have a (bad) tendency to accept more jobs than they can comfortably handle, leading to "rushed job" for your flat. [ Hint: now you know why I don't recommend too much my ID while my renovation is still not completed!]

So, how do you protect yourself against shoddy work and unscrupulous IDs/ Contractors, as well as against the possibility that an ID may not produce good work foir your renovation despite having shown you good work done at his other project sites?

Simple -- don't pay a cent until you see evidence of the work done for your renovation!!

Let me rephrase that: pay only for work done i.e. use the progress payment method to control your ID / Contractor. That is, if he has detailed his quotation, pay hm according to the work done e.g. suppose he quoted $1,500 for replacing the windows, pay him that amount on completion of that job, after you are satisfied with the work done.

Most IDs / contractors ask for 10-30% down payment on first signing the renovation contract. I told my ID, not in a harsh tone but using a gentle, persuasive tone:

"Why should I pay you when work has not started? I have more to lose than you. In my case, I cannot run away since you know where my flat is, but if you produce shoddy work, or turn out to be a cheat, you can simply disappear and I would be left with a headache! I want to trust you but I have to be careful lah."

Any reputable and experienced ID / design firm (which is what you should get) will have good relations with suppliers. These suppliers don't ask for immediate payment upfront whenever the ID brings his client to select materials but allow the ID firm to pay 1-2 months later, depending on their business relationship.

Therefore there is no good reason why you should pay upfront 10-30% of the contract price on first signing the contract. The only reason the ID asks for down payment is in case you change your mind and don't proceed on the renovation with him. That is a lame excuse, because you have signed the contract already! So I told my ID his interests are already (legally) protected when I signed on the dotted line.

Of course, as my renovation progressed and I saw that my ID was responsible and did his best for me, I relaxed the payment control and began to trust him more.

In other words, instead of you trusting the ID, turn it around and make the ID trust you for payment!

Second: insisting on progress payment gives you control.

If the work is shoddy or unacceptable, you withhold payment until the problem is rectified.

Now, if the ID is responsible and fair, you don't even have to resort to withhold payment. Usually a responsible ID will instruct the sub-con to correct the mistake(s) once he has seen the problem, or when you pointed out such mistakes to him.

On your part, you have to be responsible too. If you change your mind about a specific job or you want something done in another way AFTER you have agreed with the ID initially on what you want done, that is NOT the ID's mistake but additional work and is your mistake. Gracefully accept your mistake and be fair to pay the ID for the additional work.

If you treat the ID fairly and with respect, he will likewise reciprocate if he is a fair and reasonable guy, like in my case.

As my experience of my ID grew, my respect for him grew too. Not that he is totally blameless or perfect, but I found him to be responsible and he has access to sub-cons that produce really good work, as you can see for yourself on my blog.

Now, assuming you got an unscrupulous ID / Contractor, what do you do? Well, simply withhold further payment and stop all work. That will cut your loss.

Take photos of the work done as proof of the poor workmanship. Unscrupulous IDs / Contractors always shun publicity and you don't need to worry about any legal suits. If any, your photos will usually clinch the case for you.

Flat owners should learn how to protect themselves, and help stamp out unscrupulous IDs / Contractors using the method I advocate.

===

Proposal -- Consumer Registry of Contractors

I was disheartened to read on this forum sad and unhappy experiences that some owners have had with unscrupulous contractors. So this is a proposal:

Responsible contractors have an organization such as RADAC which has a code of business ethics and rules that member contractors must abide with. Whether RADAC best serves the interests of consumers or contractors is for each individual to decide, although common sense would dictate it is difficult for any organization to represent both oposing parties in a dispute, isn't it? Nevertheless I have a healthy regard for RADAC and applaud its good efforts to improve overall construction standards and to weed out unscrupulous contractors.

Maybe we should have our own consumer's registry or organization to table consumers' experience with their contractors, both good and bad experiences i.e. a registry to serve best interests of consumers -- along the foll lines:

ID or Contractor name: xxx

No of Consumers who have used the firm : e.g. 10

No of complaints of poor workmanship: e.g. 3

No of good recommendations: e.g. 7

Forumers who have completed their renovation would be sent a questionnaire and encouraged to submit their judgment / conclusion on the work of the ID / Contractor engaged, and the results tabulated in the above registry, and linked to the relevant thread(s) for the details / blogs. Obviously, the contractors wld have the right of reply to complaints filed by a flat owner, and then it is up to the forumer to judge for himself the complaint. If the contractor concerned don't respond after the registry contacted him for feedback, that also wld be telling.

Lots of administration work, yes, but RenoTalk is the ideal forum to handle such a registry. Obviously in this preliminary post the registry proposal is bare and many details need to be flushed out.

Let's see first if there is support. Many owners are simply too busy and are only keen while doing their renovation. Once that is completed, interest would vanish, so the registry idea may not take root at all.

So, what do you think of the proposal? Would you support it? And would you volunteer your services for such a registry?

Edited March 16, 2008 by BlueFly

[huffpuff 0]

How do you protect yourself against unscrupulous ID/Contractor?

Visiting an ID's work at his on-going project site(s) and seeing for yourself the quality of the work done is at best a comfort, but not a guarantee, that he will produce good workmanship for your renovation, for the foll reasons:

(1) the sub-con team he used for the work you have just seen may not be available for your renovation,

(2) most IDs / Contractors have a (bad) tendency to accept more jobs than they can comfortably handle, leading to "rushed job" for your flat. [ Hint: now you know why I don't recommend too much my ID while my renovation is still not completed!]

So, how do you protect yourself against shoddy work and unscrupulous IDs/ Contractors, as well as against the possibility that an ID may not produce good work foir your renovation despite having shown you good work done at his other project sites?

Simple -- don't pay a cent until you see evidence of the work done for your renovation!!

Let me rephrase that: pay only for work done i.e. use the progress payment method to control your ID / Contractor. That is, if he has detailed his quotation, pay hm according to the work done e.g. suppose he quoted $1,500 for replacing the windows, pay him that amount on completion of that job, after you are satisfied with the work done.

Most IDs / contractors ask for 10-30% down payment on first signing the renovation contract. I told my ID, not in a harsh tone but using a gentle, persuasive tone:

"Why should I pay you when work has not started? I have more to lose than you. In my case, I cannot run away since you know where my flat is, but if you produce shoddy work, or turn out to be a cheat, you can simply disappear and I would be left with a headache! I want to trust you but I have to be careful lah."

Any reputable and experienced ID / design firm (which is what you should get) will have good relations with suppliers. These suppliers don't ask for immediate payment upfront whenever the ID brings his client to select materials but allow the ID firm to pay 1-2 months later, depending on their business relationship.

Therefore there is no good reason why you should pay upfront 10-30% of the contract price on first signing the contract. The only reason the ID asks for down payment is in case you change your mind and don't proceed on the renovation with him. That is a lame excuse, because you have signed the contract already! So I told my ID his interests are already (legally) protected when I signed on the dotted line.

Of course, as my renovation progressed and I saw that my ID was responsible and did his best for me, I relaxed the payment control and began to trust him more.

In other words, instead of you trusting the ID, turn it around and make the ID trust you for payment!

Second: insisting on progress payment gives you control.

If the work is shoddy or unacceptable, you withhold payment until the problem is rectified.

Now, if the ID is responsible and fair, you don't even have to resort to withhold payment. Usually a responsible ID will instruct the sub-con to correct the mistake(s) once he has seen the problem, or when you pointed out such mistakes to him.

On your part, you have to be responsible too. If you change your mind about a specific job or you want something done in another way AFTER you have agreed with the ID initially on what you want done, that is NOT the ID's mistake but additional work and is your mistake. Gracefully accept your mistake and be fair to pay the ID for the additional work.

If you treat the ID fairly and with respect, he will likewise reciprocate if he is a fair and reasonable guy, like in my case.

As my experience of my ID grew, my respect for him grew too. Not that he is totally blameless or perfect, but I found him to be responsible and he has access to sub-cons that produce really good work, as you can see for yourself on my blog.

Now, assuming you got an unscrupulous ID / Contractor, what do you do? Well, simply withhold further payment and stop all work. That will cut your loss.

Take photos of the work done as proof of the poor workmanship. Unscrupulous IDs / Contractors always shun publicity and you don't need to worry about any legal suits. If any, your photos will usually clinch the case for you.

Flat owners should learn how to protect themselves, and help stamp out unscrupulous IDs / Contractors using the method I advocate.

===

Proposal -- Consumer Registry of Contractors

I was disheartened to read on this forum sad and unhappy experiences that some owners have had with unscrupulous contractors. So this is a proposal:

Responsible contractors have an organization such as RADAC which has a code of business ethics and rules that member contractors must abide with. Whether RADAC best serves the interests of consumers or contractors is for each individual to decide, although common sense would dictate it is difficult for any organization to represent both oposing parties in a dispute, isn't it? Nevertheless I have a healthy regard for RADAC and applaud its good efforts to improve overall construction standards and to weed out unscrupulous contractors.

Maybe we should have our own consumer's registry or organization to table consumers' experience with their contractors, both good and bad experiences i.e. a registry to serve best interests of consumers -- along the foll lines:

ID or Contractor name: xxx

No of Consumers who have used the firm : e.g. 10

No of complaints of poor workmanship: e.g. 3

No of good recommendations: e.g. 7

Forumers who have completed their renovation would be sent a questionnaire and encouraged to submit their judgment / conclusion on the work of the ID / Contractor engaged, and the results tabulated in the above registry, and linked to the relevant thread(s) for the details / blogs. Obviously, the contractors wld have the right of reply to complaints filed by a flat owner, and then it is up to the forumer to judge for himself the complaint. If the contractor concerned don't respond after the registry contacted him for feedback, that also wld be telling.

Lots of administration work, yes, but RenoTalk is the ideal forum to handle such a registry. Obviously in this preliminary post the registry proposal is bare and many details need to be flushed out.

Let's see first if there is support. Many owners are simply too busy and are only keen while doing their renovation. Once that is completed, interest would vanish, so the registry idea may not take root at all.

So, what do you think of the proposal? Would you support it? And would you volunteer your services for such a registry?

HI BlueFly, I totally agree with your suggestion of setting up a registry. After the major 'headache' is over, there is still the maintenance and the daily living issues which renotalk.com is useful for in terms of feedback and suggestions. I will certainly support it after having gone through 3 major reno works with contractors/ID - 2 of which are for my own place - and experiences differ so much each time.

It's true that the entire experience has to stem from meeting of minds and expectations throughout the whole process, so even though my very first reno experience was for my mom's place and it was with those typical contractor who boasts of in-house design expertise, that turned out to be the most pleasant experience i've had so far.

The second was with an ID, who came up with fabulous design not only for interior but also space management, but was very lacking when it came to putting all that design to fruition. One year after moving in, things start to fall apart. Despite of that I suppose my hubby and I are still in contact with him - he even invited us to his other new projects - partly because we know that it is the contractor's lousy workmanship rather than his design. Afterall we did pick the cheapest contractor to work with, amongst the 3 quotes that they sourced for us initially. But each stage of the way we were consulted, and they really stuck to our stated budget.

Armed with all that experience, we thought we would be wiser in picking the ID for our current place. Alas, it has never failed to amaze me how some can pass themselves off in the market despite of the lackluster work they put forth. I don't deny that we have to bear part of the responsibility - afterall we appointed them - but there are a few things we could've done to avoid the mess we are in right now with the ID. So if that experience can help someone else out there from further frustrations, I am all for it. Sign me up now!

[BlueFly 0]

HI BlueFly, I totally agree with your suggestion of setting up a registry. After the major 'headache' is over, there is still the maintenance and the daily living issues which renotalk.com is useful for in terms of feedback and suggestions. I will certainly support it after having gone through 3 major reno works with contractors/ID - 2 of which are for my own place - and experiences differ so much each time.

It's true that the entire experience has to stem from meeting of minds and expectations throughout the whole process, so even though my very first reno experience was for my mom's place and it was with those typical contractor who boasts of in-house design expertise, that turned out to be the most pleasant experience i've had so far.

The second was with an ID, who came up with fabulous design not only for interior but also space management, but was very lacking when it came to putting all that design to fruition. One year after moving in, things start to fall apart. Despite of that I suppose my hubby and I are still in contact with him - he even invited us to his other new projects - partly because we know that it is the contractor's lousy workmanship rather than his design. Afterall we did pick the cheapest contractor to work with, amongst the 3 quotes that they sourced for us initially. But each stage of the way we were consulted, and they really stuck to our stated budget.

Armed with all that experience, we thought we would be wiser in picking the ID for our current place. Alas, it has never failed to amaze me how some can pass themselves off in the market despite of the lackluster work they put forth. I don't deny that we have to bear part of the responsibility - afterall we appointed them - but there are a few things we could've done to avoid the mess we are in right now with the ID. So if that experience can help someone else out there from further frustrations, I am all for it. Sign me up now!

Huffpuff, much thanks for your enthusiastic support. We need more ppl like you for the registry idea to work. If all home owners like you are willing to put in some effort, I am sure the idea will take off.

But to get the idea off the ground takes a lot of effort, time, and commitment, so most ppl will probably be frightened off from volunteering, even if they like the idea.

Initially I was hoping (ideally) that RenoTalk itself -- because they have the platform and resources -- will take up the cause for home-owners. However, they probably have their own agenda and priorities, and may feel it is inappropriate to "push" the idea. Hence we will likely look to get committed volunteers like you and others instead to form the core team to develop the idea further.

Obviously, anyone wishing to volunteer time and effort will need to ensure they have no links -- whether financial or otherwise -- to id firms and contractors. This is to ensure that no undue influence or bias is introduced into the scheme.

For those who like the idea but couldn't volunteer due to no time, etc you could still help out by sharing your experiences. To support, all you need to do is simply put up your blog, preferably with pictures, to share your renovation experience, and rate your id / contractor / service provider, based on criteria we will put up later. Tell us whether you are happy or not with the work done, and explain why. Give us a pm and we will follow up with you.

huffpuff, keep your line open, will contact you once we've got more ppl willing to commit!