WiFi setup for landed

[hermes76 0]

Hi, need some opinions of wifi setup of a landed property consisting of 3 storey + a mezzanine on the ground floor.

L1 - ground floor

L2 - mezzanine 

L3 - bedrooms 

L4 - attic

After much consideration, I'll be using Netgear Orbi RBK853(1 router, 2 satellites) wifi6 mesh system + a 24-ports PoE switch. 

The fiber ONT will likely to be at the DB box on L1 with 2x cat6 UTP cables connecting to the mezzanine platform floor. Pls refer to blue box on photo for an idea where the router will be mounted. This router will serve the ground floor + mezzanine. With 1 satellite each on level 3 n L4. 

So the link will be modem@DB - router(blue box on L2) - switch@DB, thus need 2x data point at the router for Ethernet back haul. 

The other 2 satellites will be centrally mounted/placed on L3 n L4. 

Is the above setup OK? Or should the router be at L3(central level of the house) n the satellites on L1 n L4? 

Welcome all comments n advices, thanks. 

[snoozee 98]

I was trying to reconcile your floor plan to your photo and couldn't. Realised that you just took the photo off the web and it's not your house.

Anyway, what ISP are you getting? Singtel nowadays give ONR which is a router itself.

are you planning to use wired backhaul for your Level 2 and attic? If you are not using, then you will have performance issue. Any mesh or wifi extending systems will require line of sight to work properly. Without line of sight, the wifi signal will have a big loss when passing through walls/concrete floor slabs and your mesh system will fail.

It is best to use wired backhaul for all your wifi access points. Also where you are planning to place the router on the mezzanine will not work well. Wifi signals usually are cast is a certain optimal direction and not 360 degrees. So you will end up with dead spots/zones if you choose to mount the wifi there. It would be better to mount the access point on the ceiling of the mezzanine so that the signal will cast downwards and provide coverage for both mezzanine and level 1 at the same time. For best coverage, always place your wifi access points on the ceiling and facing downwards. This will enable the wifi signal to cast radially down and outwards to increase the coverage area.

Looking at how much the netgear set costs online (about 1500), I think it will be cheaper that you buy 3 or 4 wireless access points from ubiquiti and another router if needed. This should give you better performance at a lower cost as well.

[hermes76 0]

@snoozee

Sorry, forgot to state that the pic was from the Internet as the house is still under-construction and that's closest pic i could get to illustrate my intention of the router's position.

We are currently on StarHub's 1Gbps fiber broadband so should likely to carry on with it at the new house. But even with SingTel which u mentioned they provide a ONR that's a router, can we use this router as part of the intended mesh system?

Yes, I am planning to have wired backhaul to all levels, that's why i'm catering a 24-ports switch for the house. Now that you suggested the router's location is better off on the ceiling, should i switch to enterprise APs instead? But what i heard from the Netgear guy is that networks switching on APs is not as smooth as in a mesh system as AP networks work independently and you have to add all the SSIDs into your device and let your device connects to the strongest available automatically, Whereas for mesh, u only add 1 SSID and the transition is almost seamless? Is this part true? only thing is that enterprise APs are much more aesthetically pleasing than a mesh router. kinda weird to have a router hanging upside down from the ceiling.

So you think using APs is better and more economical? Thanks alot for your knowledge sharing, really appreciate it.

The Netgear RBK853 mesh retails at $1,399 for a set of 3.

Asus XT8 mesh cost about $500 for a set of 2.

Ubiquiti U6 AP cost $279 each.

 

[snoozee 98]

if you sell durians, would you say your durian is lousy or someone else's durians are lousy?

technically the sales guy is not wrong, but it all depends on how you configure the APs. if you use the public wireless at SG at shopping malls, do you encounter needing to switch to different SSIDs while walking around? No right? It's all about how the configuration is done and most enterprise APs are configured to have seamless handovers between the APs. To have seamless handover, all the APs must be configured to a single same SSID. There are configuration settings which can be done to provide for seamless handover between the APs once you move out of range. For my own house, I can stream a show on my mobile phone while walking from my 1st level to my attic without losing connection at all. I'm using a HP Enterprise wifi setup at home.

Since you are planning for wired backhaul for your wifi, then there's no need to buy mesh equipment and then use as a AP. why pay for functionalities which you are not going to use? Mesh wifi is more for big apartments where line of sight can be obtained for each node and the owners does not want the inconvenience of drilling and laying cables for wired backhaul. But for landed houses, it don't work well since each node may not see each other and the bandwidth will suffer as a result. 

The Singtel ONR is more convenient for basic users who don't have complex setups. It also results in a double NAT issue when user has his own router put in place. I will be jumping ship elsewhere once my contract is up with ST. ST used to configure bridge mode for their ONR so that advanced users can use the ONR as a ONT, but they have stopped doing this already. Technically their ONR can be used for a mesh setup (they provided a mesh AP when I signed up previously) and I believe should work with APs as well. But the problem is their ONR is locked down so there's no way for end users to reconfigure certain settings and in the event of the need to do troubleshooting, it's almost impossible. That's why a ONT which simply passes the internet WAN IP over to the router is better since we can configure our own router to how we want to use it within our network rather than being forced to follow what ST feels is the best configuration.

Anyway if your SH contract has not expired when you move to the new place, you may or may not need to pay a relocation charge to bring the connection over to the new place. I believe officially there is a relocation charge when moving homes but SH waived it for me previously when I did my relocation of the services.

[petetherock 13]

I’m using a basic Google mesh with wired back haul, and it’s been fine.. in case you want something simple… but mount them higher if possible…

I use one per floor, located near the stair landing 

[snoozee 98]

2 hours ago, petetherock said:

I’m using a basic Google mesh with wired back haul, and it’s been fine.. in case you want something simple… but mount them higher if possible…

I use one per floor, located near the stair landing 

When u have wired back haul, the mesh nodes will be more like a normal access point already 

[bahlonglong 0]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:29 AM, hermes76 said:

@snoozee

Sorry, forgot to state that the pic was from the Internet as the house is still under-construction and that's closest pic i could get to illustrate my intention of the router's position.

We are currently on StarHub's 1Gbps fiber broadband so should likely to carry on with it at the new house. But even with SingTel which u mentioned they provide a ONR that's a router, can we use this router as part of the intended mesh system?

Yes, I am planning to have wired backhaul to all levels, that's why i'm catering a 24-ports switch for the house. Now that you suggested the router's location is better off on the ceiling, should i switch to enterprise APs instead? But what i heard from the Netgear guy is that networks switching on APs is not as smooth as in a mesh system as AP networks work independently and you have to add all the SSIDs into your device and let your device connects to the strongest available automatically, Whereas for mesh, u only add 1 SSID and the transition is almost seamless? Is this part true? only thing is that enterprise APs are much more aesthetically pleasing than a mesh router. kinda weird to have a router hanging upside down from the ceiling.

So you think using APs is better and more economical? Thanks alot for your knowledge sharing, really appreciate it.

The Netgear RBK853 mesh retails at $1,399 for a set of 3.

Asus XT8 mesh cost about $500 for a set of 2.

Ubiquiti U6 AP cost $279 each.

 

Why don't you just get the CCTV / Intercom / Gate guys to quote an enterprise grade Wifi system for you and work with the main con? That way you can

(1) have an optimal and secure location for all your CCTV recorder, NAS,  switches, etc,

(2) ensure all the concealed cabling is run properly (these things take up space) so it should be planned and budgeted now, and

(3) they can advise where is the best place to put the APs, how many and why, what kind of switches, etc. you can even have everything terminate in a server rack.

You have a clean slate and it makes sense to focus on the backbone of the system - the APs themselves will likely change with time due to tech becoming obsolete etc but that can always be changed later. Frankly, mesh or no mesh is a minor consideration in the long run. and the AP won't look very different than say a smoke detector but the coverage would be better 

 

 

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[wersingaporeans 0]

Hi all, Need some internet advice too! I'm in the midst of finalising my place too and I have this bunch of cables handle for my home internet setup. My internet provider will be StarHub (  2000Mbps Fibre Broadband ) as I will relocate my current internet service over. My current condo setup with TP-link 3 deco nodes are no longer sufficient (x60 AX3000 wifi 6 mesh).

 

My new space is similar to Hermes76.

My house consist of 4 levels.  

L1 - ground floor (living, 1 bedroom)  
L2 - mezzanine (study room)
L3 - 4 bedrooms  
L4 - Attic -  2 bedrooms

I will be shifting to a landed and I see I have around 50 plus lan / phone lines cable to connect to.

Can I know what kind of router can I use, prefer to use back TP-link if possible as it was good compared to other brands that I've tried. 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by wersingaporeans
update

[snoozee 98]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:26 PM, wersingaporeans said:

Hi all, Need some internet advice too! I'm in the midst of finalising my place too and I have this bunch of cables handle for my home internet setup. My internet provider will be StarHub (  2000Mbps Fibre Broadband ) as I will relocate my current internet service over. My current condo setup with TP-link 3 deco nodes are no longer sufficient (x60 AX3000 wifi 6 mesh).

 

My new space is similar to Hermes76.

My house consist of 4 levels.  

L1 - ground floor (living, 1 bedroom)  
L2 - mezzanine (study room)
L3 - 4 bedrooms  
L4 - Attic -  2 bedrooms

I will be shifting to a landed and I see I have around 50 plus lan / phone lines cable to connect to.

Can I know what kind of router can I use, prefer to use back TP-link if possible as it was good compared to other brands that I've tried. 

 

is your photo your existing (old) setup or new setup in your new house? Cos if this is for a newly constructed house, i would be giving the contractor a lot of grief for this type of workmanship.

WIFI setup should actually be planned before construction start since the cables should be laid in optimal locations and doing it after would likely mean you need to pull cables or have more access points to make up for the limited coverage wall lan points may provide. eg: if an AP is mounted on a wall, a whole level could get the WIFI signal from this single AP. but if a AP is placed on a desk next to a wall in a room, you may need another AP on another end of the level to provide coverage for poor/dead spots.

Also, LAN cable termination plays a part in how the network equipment can be placed. With reference to the photo above, the termination is very short, maybe about 1.2m. This means you will either need to mount your data switch on the wall or have a small shelf/desk next to the bunch of cables to do the connections. With longer termination length, there is more option on how/where the network equipment can be placed.

There's 2 sets of cables, data cable for networking/internet and telephone cables for your telephones usage. Nowadays, contractors also use CAT6 cables for telephone cabling so your contractor should have labeled the cable ends properly so you can identify which cable is for what.

For network cables, you need to connect all the cable ends to a data switch. If you have less than 23 network cables, then a 24 port data switch will be enough. But if you have more than 24 network cables, then you need to decide if you want to buy a 48 ports switch or 2 sets of 24 ports switch. Note that a 24 port switch will need a "spare" port for the uplink which is to either connect between switches or connect to a router. So if you have 2 sets of 24 ports switch, you will need to cater for a total of 3 "spare" ports, 1 port on each switch to connect to each other and another port to connect to a router.

TP Link is more of a small home use switch so it will work for your case but personally, I would prefer better brands of which some offer limited lifetime warranty. With limited lifetime warranty, you pay once and if the switch fails 5 years down the road, you get a replacement FOC (may get another model if existing model is no longer available).

To get WIFI coverage, you will need at least one access point for each level. As I mentioned earlier, if you had not planned to have ceiling mounted APs at the start, you may need to buy more APs to provide more coverage. How many APs you need would be more of a trial and error testing now as you need to install an AP first, then use a mobile phone with a WIFI detection app to check the signal strength. If the signal strength is poor/low at certain areas, then you may want to consider adding another AP to provide coverage. At minimum, you would need at least 4 APs, one for each level. your level 2 with 4 bedrooms may require an additional AP if the WIFI signal is bad.

Do note that a wireless AP (Access Point) is not the same as a router. Those equipment bundled by telcos are WIFI routers which have AP functionality built in. But a true AP simply receives and sends the network traffic to and from the router without doing any routing. While you can buy multiple WIFI routers to serve the same function, it would be best if you can configure these WIFI routers without the routing function so that they act just like an AP. Else if you have too many equipment performing the routing function, you may encounter performance issues and it's not easy to troubleshoot as well. As a general rule, one local network should have only one router.

Now for the telephone cables. DO NOT connect your telephone cables to the data switches as they don't serve the same purpose. But you could technically convert the telephone point to become a data point if the correct ports/plugs are installed. By right each telephone cable can only be used for 1 telephone line. Meaning if you have 5 telephone cables, you will need 5 telephone lines to call out. However, you can use telephone line splitters to combine these lines and make do with one single outgoing telephone line. Another option is for you to install a PBX system at home. With a PBX, all telephone lines from the rooms will connect to the PBX. The PBX will then be connected to the main outgoing telephone line. With a PBX, you can also get the intercom, hold, call transfer functions etc. So it's basically like a office telephone system but installed at home. A small PBX system may cost a few hundred dollars so it's not that expensive to have one at home.

 

[wersingaporeans 0]

Thank you so much for your wise inputs snoozee!

The photo is my new house. The way it's left there it's telling me, I must do carpentry there to just hide everything.

Thanks for also feeling my grief, I tell myself to just be happy that my rebuilding was completed eventually without the contractor going bankrupted. 

Wifi setup wasn't planned during my consultation but they allowed me to add lan points for cctv, and points for each zone, rooms. 

I also just found out that the lift also can be connected to a phone line. 

I did not plan for using AP as I've thought that using mesh networks would be sufficient (and really never thought I had the need). My Malaysian colleagues have big landed houses and they do not require such complicated setup at home. They were also shocked to see my cables and told me to build a server room (🙄) 

I will have to mount the data switch on the wall or have a small shelf/desk next to the bunch of cables to do the connections since I will be doing carpentry work. (My carpenter is very good so he will help me settle it once I get all my devices in)  

I bought a Panasonic phone system (kx-tg7731) with 6 phones to serve as intercom for each room but have not wired them up. 

What would be the brands of the AP or switch that you will be recommending as I'm not familiar with that. I choose TP Link as the nodes seems most reliable compared to the many brands that have failed me in the past. 

I think I do not have to hook up all 50 lan points too so I guess at 24 port switch should do the job now and I can expand it further next time too right?

Best Regards

 

 

[snoozee 98]

10 hours ago, wersingaporeans said:

Thank you so much for your wise inputs snoozee!

The photo is my new house. The way it's left there it's telling me, I must do carpentry there to just hide everything.

Thanks for also feeling my grief, I tell myself to just be happy that my rebuilding was completed eventually without the contractor going bankrupted. 

Wifi setup wasn't planned during my consultation but they allowed me to add lan points for cctv, and points for each zone, rooms. 

I also just found out that the lift also can be connected to a phone line. 

I did not plan for using AP as I've thought that using mesh networks would be sufficient (and really never thought I had the need). My Malaysian colleagues have big landed houses and they do not require such complicated setup at home. They were also shocked to see my cables and told me to build a server room (🙄) 

I will have to mount the data switch on the wall or have a small shelf/desk next to the bunch of cables to do the connections since I will be doing carpentry work. (My carpenter is very good so he will help me settle it once I get all my devices in)  

I bought a Panasonic phone system (kx-tg7731) with 6 phones to serve as intercom for each room but have not wired them up. 

What would be the brands of the AP or switch that you will be recommending as I'm not familiar with that. I choose TP Link as the nodes seems most reliable compared to the many brands that have failed me in the past. 

I think I do not have to hook up all 50 lan points too so I guess at 24 port switch should do the job now and I can expand it further next time too right?

Best Regards

 

 

If the type of workmanship was for my house, I would have given a piece of my mind to the QP and contactor and ask if this is acceptable for their own house. I do not know what that big chunk of white "box" coming out from the floor is but for a brand new rebuilt house, there shouldn't be this type of funny things jutting out at wierd locations. Even if there's no choice but to have something to come out of the floor, at least something can be done to make it more aesthetically pleasing rather than leave it like this.

By right all networking items should be part of the initial design of the house together with electrical wiring. There's requirements from IMDA on where the network points need to be installed and so on. The phone line in the lift is needed for safety reasons. Imaging if one is using the lift breaks down when no one else is at home. By right the lift should be self-homing and goes down to the first floor and automatically open the doors if there's a problem. But there's always a chance things don't work when they should and hence the phone is needed to allow the passenger to call for help.

Not sure how big your colleagues landed houses across the causeway are. But in SG, everything is maximised in the plot of land and the walls causes the WIFI signal to degrade. With mesh setup, the mesh nodes will require line of sight to work well but with walls in between, mesh doesn't work well. So one will still require mesh nodes or AP with wired backhaul to get the best WIFI signal. When I did my house, I had already planned for all my network and AP locations. I have a server rack in a designated location to house all my network equipment as well so that things will be tidy. The server rack which I bought 2nd hand cost me less than $500 which would be cheaper than having custom furniture built.

The phone system you bought is not really a full fledged phone system. I guess you could daisy chain the telephone cables at the termination point such that the base units are all connected to the main incoming line. The PBX I'm using is a Panasonic KX-TES824 which I placed in my server rack. The digital phone line from my ISP's ONR is then connected to the PBX as the incoming line.

For network equipment, I prefer HP Enterprise models as they usually come with limited lifetime warranty and some models don't burn a hole in my pocket. Of cos if you're the type who wants to upgrade often to get the latest technology then the lifetime warranty don't matter much.

I would suggest you just plug in all the network points at the start and save your headache in future. From your photo, it doesn't look like your contractor had labeled the cables as well so you will not know which cable is for which point in your house unless you spend time to trace them. If your CCTV recorder comes with network points with POE, you may want to connect the CCTV network cables to the recorder directly rather than to the switch. Unless you require the use of POE devices on your network, you can get a normal gigabit switch which will be slightly cheaper than a POE switch. Alternatively is to buy 1 normal and 1 POE switch such that your POE devices can be connected to the POE switch and other devices connected to the normal switch.

[wersingaporeans 0]

Thank you snoozee for your detailed explanation and useful tips. I've gotten a quotation from TP Link and the sales person is extremely helpful. 

These are the proposed models to get the strongest signal for my place, not sure if its too much

L1 - ground floor (living, 1 bedroom)   - 2pcs AP EAP650
L2 - mezzanine (study room) - 2 pc AP EAP650
L3 - 4 bedrooms   - 1 pc AP EAP650, 2 pcs EAP615-Wall
L4 - Attic -  2 bedrooms  - 1 pc AP EAP650, 2 pcs EAP615-Wall

Ports	Description	Model
10	Router	ER7212PC
24	Switch	SG2428P
	AP	EAP615-Wall
	AP	EAP650

 

For the "chunk of cables" in that area, I'm gonna build carpentry for the entire wall as I have more unsightly things to hide for that wall. Server racks are indeed good idea for me to consider for that section! My carpenter is very reliable so I hope that gives me a piece of mind 

 

Best Regards

[snoozee 98]

18 hours ago, wersingaporeans said:

Thank you snoozee for your detailed explanation and useful tips. I've gotten a quotation from TP Link and the sales person is extremely helpful. 

These are the proposed models to get the strongest signal for my place, not sure if its too much

L1 - ground floor (living, 1 bedroom)   - 2pcs AP EAP650
L2 - mezzanine (study room) - 2 pc AP EAP650
L3 - 4 bedrooms   - 1 pc AP EAP650, 2 pcs EAP615-Wall
L4 - Attic -  2 bedrooms  - 1 pc AP EAP650, 2 pcs EAP615-Wall

Ports	Description	Model
10	Router	ER7212PC
24	Switch	SG2428P
	AP	EAP615-Wall
	AP	EAP650

 

For the "chunk of cables" in that area, I'm gonna build carpentry for the entire wall as I have more unsightly things to hide for that wall. Server racks are indeed good idea for me to consider for that section! My carpenter is very reliable so I hope that gives me a piece of mind 

 

Best Regards

I have no idea how is your house layout. But 10 APs for an inter terrace seems overkill. Eg: is your study so huge that you need to have two APs to provide the coverage? or is the product quality so bad that 2 APs are needed to cover the area of the study? Same as for your attic. Do you need 3 APs to provide the coverage for 2 bedrooms?

Of cos the sales rep will propose a solution to you so that there will be no complaints for poor reception at certain areas and he get the flack for not proposing enough equipment. But then with additional equipment, how much are you going to pay more upfront in equipment cost and running costs to keep the equipment turned on 24/7? While the cost of having an AP run 24/7 is about 10 cents a day, if you multiple this by 5 APs, that's an additional $15 per month you need to pay in electricity.

If you're planning to install APs on the ceiling, then you may not need to have 10 APs at all. You will likely need 1 AP for your mezzanine study. Whether the AP in your study can provide some coverage for you living room will depend on what material you have as the wall which overlooks your living room. So how many APs are needed in your living room will depends on the mezzanine location. eg: if you have an AP in the middle of the study at the mezzanine (which is located at the rear of the house), the AP may provide coverage for the area immediately below and around it. Then you will need another AP to provide coverage for the front living area and car porch. For your 2nd storey with 4 bedrooms, you could install 1 AP to cover 2 bedrooms so just 2 APs should be enough. For attic, 1 AP right in the middle should be able to cover both bedrooms. If later on you find that certain spots are really bad, then you could add on those wall APs which are plugged into the wall RJ45 ports to cover the areas.

The router which is proposed seems overkill as well for a home use environment. You could make do with a lower cost model or even make use of the existing one you have right now. the 24 ports POE switch will be more to provide power for your APs. You need to ask yourself if 24 ports are enough? if not, then you may want to add on another 24 ports non-POE switch. Again whether to link up all your 50 LAN ports now or later is up to you.

 

 

 

[wersingaporeans 0]

I totally agree what you say also think it’s too much. My friends semi d is 2 times bigger than mine but no such setup, so I will definitely reduce the unit. In the meantime I will be trying my old mesh AX300 that covers up to 7,000 ft.². If the signal isn’t too bad I can just add on 3 more mesh lo? :/ I bought it in the past so that I can use it in this house as marketer 7,000 sqft. I’m waiting for the Starhub people to help me install and hope that will suffice! But as you rightly point out… the thick walls Maybe the hurdle