Flooring

[endlssorrow 1]

Hello All,

I'm new here and this is my first post to this zone

1) Have been confused for should I do marble/tiles or Laminate flooring type.

I know that most housing is design in a way that living room is done with tiles/marble while the 3 room is done with Laminateflooring.

I also have been thinking if timber can ready last for many many years like up to 15/20 years anot. Of coz many will say after certain years, you will change new house/etc. But problem is how long can timber last right?

So I managed to source for 2 differ timber flooring. There are

(a) Krono which is made in Germany combine using Clickguard can last for 15yrs &

(b) Supreme Floors which is lifetime warranty.

And both have AC4 (8mm) & AC5 (12mm). of coz i don’t know what is AC4 or AC5, but the number bigger means better. So AC5 is the better ones. Hahaha

Since the prices between the above mentioned is not much differ, which one should i take?

Is there any expert or experience ones care to recommend/feedback on this?

2) Since I will be doing renov for my 4-rm flat, should I source for contractor/ID which include flooring or should I soruce for another company to separate the flooring finishing on later part which will be much cheaper i think?

Thanks for reading this long post

Edited October 24, 2010 by endlssorrow

[morganwu 0]

Hello Endlssorrow,

1) I believe Krono and Supreme Floors do not produce timber flooring. I do not know why, but you seem to be under the impression that laminate flooring=timber floor. They do not.

Laminates are man-made flooring designed to mimic the look of natural timber floors.

Their first layer is a layer of plastic (resin, if you prefer to call it that). This layer of resin protects the surface has 'wood' patterns either printed or pressed into it.

The second layer is a layer of substrate usually made of high density fiber (HDF) board. This layer forms the bulk of the flooring panel. The third layer is a layer of water proofing material. This layer is necessary because HDF is not water resistant. They absorb water and swell. So this layer is there to protect the substrate from water.

Most houses, if you are referring to condominiums, do not use laminate flooring in their rooms. They use solid timber. Laid, sand and then coated. Laminates have their own set of characteristics, and have both benefits and disadvantage over real solid timber floors.

I do not wish to go into a detailed comparison here, but my advice to you is that you should also consider using solid timber floors for your house. They offer lasting value over man-made materials.

2) It would be cheaper for you to go to a flooring contractor directly. At least this is true if you are using solid wood.

Disclamier: I am a distributor of OSMO coatings from Germany for real timber floors. You may PM me if you wish to contact the installers i work with to gather quotes for timber floors.

[endlssorrow 1]

Hello Endlssorrow,

1) I believe Krono and Supreme Floors do not produce timber flooring. I do not know why, but you seem to be under the impression that laminate flooring=timber floor. They do not.

Laminates are man-made flooring designed to mimic the look of natural timber floors.

Their first layer is a layer of plastic (resin, if you prefer to call it that). This layer of resin protects the surface has 'wood' patterns either printed or pressed into it.

The second layer is a layer of substrate usually made of high density fiber (HDF) board. This layer forms the bulk of the flooring panel. The third layer is a layer of water proofing material. This layer is necessary because HDF is not water resistant. They absorb water and swell. So this layer is there to protect the substrate from water.

Most houses, if you are referring to condominiums, do not use laminate flooring in their rooms. They use solid timber. Laid, sand and then coated. Laminates have their own set of characteristics, and have both benefits and disadvantage over real solid timber floors.

I do not wish to go into a detailed comparison here, but my advice to you is that you should also consider using solid timber floors for your house. They offer lasting value over man-made materials.

2) It would be cheaper for you to go to a flooring contractor directly. At least this is true if you are using solid wood.

Disclamier: I am a distributor of OSMO coatings from Germany for real timber floors. You may PM me if you wish to contact the installers i work with to gather quotes for timber floors.

[endlssorrow 1]

Understand that it is not timber that y is resistant to fire/water/scratch which is very good. But care to share the disadvantages?

[morganwu 0]

A. From a health/safety point of view,

First you need to ask WHY it is 'resistant' to fire. Next you got to ask WHAT is gonna to be released if it actually got hot enough for it to burn.

A lot of fire retardants (chemicals) are being newly classified as harmful to health or environment. The claim can be that the substance used is not harmful. But if you look back in history a lot of building materials once considered harmless are been reclassified as toxic. E.g. Asbestos Hence the chemicals being used in the laminate may be considered harmless now, but in actuality nobody knows, because only time can tell.

Everything burns; as long as the temperature is high enough. So you also need to ask what chemical/substances are released when the product actually starts burning. More people die from smoke inhalation than the fire itself. The smoke itself is bad enough; if the fire retardants in the product are also released... Imagine being in that smoke.

B. From an environment point of view,

This is highly contentious. However, from my observation using natural materials like timber produces the least pollution. For a few reasons:

1. They last. I can easily find wooden floors that are over 2 decades old.

1a. Less waste; because they lasts, and can be repaired. I can renovate old timber floors and they may look even better than fresh timber floors. Laminates can’t be repaired. Laminates have a use and throw philosophy.

2. The manufacturing processes of timber floors are relatively simple compared to laminates. Think of the industrial processes, chemicals, petroleum products and energy required to manufacture laminates. For solid timber floors, we chop down the tree, mill it to size, shape the tongue and groove, then install... That’s about it.

3. Trees help store carbon dioxide. Using timber products, as long as you choose timber from a managed/sustainable forest, it is virtually guaranteed that the supply is unlimited and continuous. The plantations will grow new ones. The new trees will continue to take in and store CO2 from the atmosphere, and those that ended up as your floor will store those old CO2 until you burn it.

C. From a economic point of view,

1. Solid timber flooring are not substantially more expensive than laminates. Yes they are more expensive, but it all depends on the size and species. The cheapest teak floor i ever work with retails for only 5+ bucks psft. But this depends on availability, Forex rates and such. In a nut shell, your luck. But it never hurts to ask what are the current rates for the different species and sizes.

D. From an aesthetic point of view,

1. This is where it hurts me the most. I grew up with wood (family business). Perhaps that is why i can differentiate between printed wood patterns and real natural wood patterns almost immediately. Some customers tell me the laminates look the same as wood, but i show them a few pieces of real wood and they would retract their statement.

I am beginning to think this could be because city dwellers have little opportunity to see what real timber looks like (not those pine furniture in IKEA), and hence missed out on the opportunity to fall in love and appreciate real wood.

Renovation is a significant cost and commitment. I suggest you pay a trip to Sungei Kadut and visit the timber wholesalers there. Take a look at what real wood grains of White Oak, Walnut, Asian walnut, Teak, Tasmanian oak, Merbau look like. Then decide for yourself.

2. Have you seen old laminates? They fade, the 'wood grains' get rubbed off, dirt accumulates at the joints, and they absorb moisture and swell. Their surfaces crack and reveal fiber boards beneath. They peel, they disintegrate. The list goes on and on. Of course, modern laminates may have solved all this problems. But the fact is, laminates do not age beautifully. Wood does (when used with appropriate coatings).

E. From a non-scientific/rational point of view (other than aesthetics),

1. If you are a Chinese, you should understand the concept of '和' and '氣'. For some reason, and i do not know how to explain, only natural materials (natural stone, granite, marble and timber) can provide a very comfortable 'feel'. Have you ever entered a room and feel something is wrong, but couldn’t say why? Why do spas and resorts (the good ones) only use real wood? Because the result of using these natural materials helps us relax. It’s a combination of visual, smell and feel.

F. From not so much of a reason but 'shuan, song' point of view,

1. NO ONE, i repeat, NO ONE else in the whole wide world has the same timber flooring as you. Every piece on your floor is unique. For laminates give me a floor area large enough and i can hunt down 2 pieces of laminate that looks exactly the same. The last time i check, some laminates have 60+ different patterns, to reduce the chance of repeating in the same room. But why settle for 60+ patterns when you could have an infinite number of patterns? (However, if you want your floor to be uniform, laminates are the way to go)

These points are all i could think of in a short notice. I decided to list only the advantages of real timber. I am sure someone in this forum would list the disadvantages of real timber floor for you.

To sum up this ridiculously long post, i recommend you to spend some time, do your homework, make the effort to understand and see all these materials that may go into your home. The floor is a large surface in your house. The extra effort to understand the safety, cost and aesthetics of the different materials is gonna be worth it. Don't be lazy.

PS: Click on my signature to see what my business is. For home owners looking to renovate your timber floors, feel free to PM me for quotes.

Edited October 24, 2010 by morganwu

[gettome 0]

About laminate floorings are here:

http://www.mylaminate.eu/en/

Imo, the best assurance and warranty is to buy a world-class brand. You may check on the brands here:

http://www.eplf.com/en/

[titanax 0]

A. From a health/safety point of view,

First you need to ask WHY it is 'resistant' to fire. Next you got to ask WHAT is gonna to be released if it actually got hot enough for it to burn.

A lot of fire retardants (chemicals) are being newly classified as harmful to health or environment. The claim can be that the substance used is not harmful. But if you look back in history a lot of building materials once considered harmless are been reclassified as toxic. E.g. Asbestos Hence the chemicals being used in the laminate may be considered harmless now, but in actuality nobody knows, because only time can tell.

Everything burns; as long as the temperature is high enough. So you also need to ask what chemical/substances are released when the product actually starts burning. More people die from smoke inhalation than the fire itself. The smoke itself is bad enough; if the fire retardants in the product are also released... Imagine being in that smoke.

B. From an environment point of view,

This is highly contentious. However, from my observation using natural materials like timber produces the least pollution. For a few reasons:

1. They last. I can easily find wooden floors that are over 2 decades old.

1a. Less waste; because they lasts, and can be repaired. I can renovate old timber floors and they may look even better than fresh timber floors. Laminates can’t be repaired. Laminates have a use and throw philosophy.

2. The manufacturing processes of timber floors are relatively simple compared to laminates. Think of the industrial processes, chemicals, petroleum products and energy required to manufacture laminates. For solid timber floors, we chop down the tree, mill it to size, shape the tongue and groove, then install... That’s about it.

3. Trees help store carbon dioxide. Using timber products, as long as you choose timber from a managed/sustainable forest, it is virtually guaranteed that the supply is unlimited and continuous. The plantations will grow new ones. The new trees will continue to take in and store CO2 from the atmosphere, and those that ended up as your floor will store those old CO2 until you burn it.

C. From a economic point of view,

1. Solid timber flooring are not substantially more expensive than laminates. Yes they are more expensive, but it all depends on the size and species. The cheapest teak floor i ever work with retails for only 5+ bucks psft. But this depends on availability, Forex rates and such. In a nut shell, your luck. But it never hurts to ask what are the current rates for the different species and sizes.

D. From an aesthetic point of view,

1. This is where it hurts me the most. I grew up with wood (family business). Perhaps that is why i can differentiate between printed wood patterns and real natural wood patterns almost immediately. Some customers tell me the laminates look the same as wood, but i show them a few pieces of real wood and they would retract their statement.

I am beginning to think this could be because city dwellers have little opportunity to see what real timber looks like (not those pine furniture in IKEA), and hence missed out on the opportunity to fall in love and appreciate real wood.

Renovation is a significant cost and commitment. I suggest you pay a trip to Sungei Kadut and visit the timber wholesalers there. Take a look at what real wood grains of White Oak, Walnut, Asian walnut, Teak, Tasmanian oak, Merbau look like. Then decide for yourself.

2. Have you seen old laminates? They fade, the 'wood grains' get rubbed off, dirt accumulates at the joints, and they absorb moisture and swell. Their surfaces crack and reveal fiber boards beneath. They peel, they disintegrate. The list goes on and on. Of course, modern laminates may have solved all this problems. But the fact is, laminates do not age beautifully. Wood does (when used with appropriate coatings).

E. From a non-scientific/rational point of view (other than aesthetics),

1. If you are a Chinese, you should understand the concept of '和' and '氣'. For some reason, and i do not know how to explain, only natural materials (natural stone, granite, marble and timber) can provide a very comfortable 'feel'. Have you ever entered a room and feel something is wrong, but couldn’t say why? Why do spas and resorts (the good ones) only use real wood? Because the result of using these natural materials helps us relax. It’s a combination of visual, smell and feel.

F. From not so much of a reason but 'shuan, song' point of view,

1. NO ONE, i repeat, NO ONE else in the whole wide world has the same timber flooring as you. Every piece on your floor is unique. For laminates give me a floor area large enough and i can hunt down 2 pieces of laminate that looks exactly the same. The last time i check, some laminates have 60+ different patterns, to reduce the chance of repeating in the same room. But why settle for 60+ patterns when you could have an infinite number of patterns? (However, if you want your floor to be uniform, laminates are the way to go)

These points are all i could think of in a short notice. I decided to list only the advantages of real timber. I am sure someone in this forum would list the disadvantages of real timber floor for you.

To sum up this ridiculously long post, i recommend you to spend some time, do your homework, make the effort to understand and see all these materials that may go into your home. The floor is a large surface in your house. The extra effort to understand the safety, cost and aesthetics of the different materials is gonna be worth it. Don't be lazy.

PS: Click on my signature to see what my business is. For home owners looking to renovate your timber floors, feel free to PM me for quotes.

nicely written...too bad i didn't meet you earlier

[morganwu 0]

i wonder why no body replied...

[endlssorrow 1]

a) Krono quote me $4.50

(b) Supreme Floors quote me $6.80

i looked back the threads... it seem that the price is rising~

[gettome 0]

So I managed to source for 2 differ timber flooring. There are

(a) Krono which is made in Germany combine using Clickguard can last for 15yrs &

(b) Supreme Floors which is lifetime warranty.

And both have AC4 (8mm) & AC5 (12mm). of coz i don’t know what is AC4 or AC5, but the number bigger means better. So AC5 is the better ones. Haha

Bigger is Better

Supreme price is bigger country of make bigger: China

[titanax 0]

a) Krono quote me $4.50

(b) Supreme Floors quote me $6.80

i looked back the threads... it seem that the price is rising~

Supreme at $6.80?? are you sure, the last time i went down to the expo they quoted me around $4.60 but negotiable to abt $4.00+ depending on the floor size, but the price is in the same range as power deko, but at $6.50 its extremely pricey - what is their value proposition at this price range against the likes of European brands like qs, parador, pergo, krono...etc

Edited October 29, 2010 by titanax

[endlssorrow 1]

Supreme at $6.80?? are you sure, the last time i went down to the expo they quoted me around $4.60 but negotiable to abt $4.00+ depending on the floor size, but the price is in the same range as power deko, but at $6.50 its extremely pricey - what is their value proposition at this price range against the likes of European brands like qs, parador, pergo, krono...etc

sure.. last weekend i just went only.. the 3 rooms is about $3k.

[manutd1972 1]

sure.. last weekend i just went only.. the 3 rooms is about $3k.

wat!? $3k for 3 rooms? how big are your rooms?

Ehh...$6.80psf for a China-made product versus $4+ to $5psf for a European-made product? Plus, a more established name in the laminates industry? I'm sorry but i won't spend my money this way.

Granted that a lot of things are made in China now. Even big brands have moved their production facilities to China. But these big brands also have a reputation and history to uphold, so their QC standards would also be relatively higher than those Chinese-based made in China goods.

if u have dealt with made in China industrial goods, u will know wat i mean. Given a choice between 2 similar products of similar branding with pricing tt's also quite close to each other, I would definitely buy the one made in Europe vs the one made in China. Case in point: HansGrohe's Focus E2 range versus Grohe's Bau range. HG still made in Germany, while Grohe's is made in China. Both are entry level range and cost roughly the same. I bought HG.

[endlssorrow 1]

wat!? $3k for 3 rooms? how big are your rooms?

Ehh...$6.80psf for a China-made product versus $4+ to $5psf for a European-made product? Plus, a more established name in the laminates industry? I'm sorry but i won't spend my money this way.

Granted that a lot of things are made in China now. Even big brands have moved their production facilities to China. But these big brands also have a reputation and history to uphold, so their QC standards would also be relatively higher than those Chinese-based made in China goods.

if u have dealt with made in China industrial goods, u will know wat i mean. Given a choice between 2 similar products of similar branding with pricing tt's also quite close to each other, I would definitely buy the one made in Europe vs the one made in China. Case in point: HansGrohe's Focus E2 range versus Grohe's Bau range. HG still made in Germany, while Grohe's is made in China. Both are entry level range and cost roughly the same. I bought HG.

Hi manutd1972,

My hse us 4-rm HDB only.. so the 3 room is normal size small.. i get what you mean.. and of coz i wont get china product as compare to Germany...

[gimz63251073 0]

Made in "XX country" is really a whole lot of BS nowadays.

My audit friend went to a well known jap laptop manufacturer. They would make all the components except for a few stuff in china, ship the parts back, put in the jap parts and assemble in jap.

Then its sold as "made in japan".

This is what they understand from the staff in Singapore..

btw, i was quoted $4.50 for supreme before, like a year and a half ago. Given the competitiveness of the market, i seriously doubt they would price their flooring so high.

But really, supreme's flooring is a bit out of trend le...