Air-con

[jolin01 0]

Hi anyone out there know what air-con is good?

Just move need some advise...

Thanks.

Jolin

[bearlyn2406 0]

Hi anyone out there know what air-con is good?

Just move need some advise...

Thanks.

Jolin

tat depends on ur needs.. mitsubishi and panasonic are the more popular brands. LG not bad too..

[darth vader 0]

Hi anyone out there know what air-con is good?

Just move need some advise...

Thanks.

Jolin

mitsubishi for its flexibility.

[Maeryn 0]

I am using Mitsubishi Starmex and it's pretty quiet.

[limck007 0]

I am using Mitsubishi Starmex and it's pretty quiet.

i just fujitsu 3 system inverter >> 4 ticks ..

quite okie too. the design is quite simple and compact + cleaning is easy too

[first 0]

was using SANYO for 13 years. No issue except starting to get a little noisy. No top up gas. No leak. Clean every month.

Changed to DAIKIN in May 2009. 4 Ticks model. Average savings is 150 kWh per month since May 2009. Average 8 to 10 hours usage per day, 365 days per year. Super quiet even when compressor turns on and off. Cooling capacity is higher than my previous SANYO and yet still lower power consumption.

Just go for the best copper pipes and insulation and wires. No point having problem and have to call serviceman to replace pipes later... This will give you more headaches.

Edited July 27, 2010 by first

[dexufto 5]

was using SANYO for 13 years. No issue except starting to get a little noisy. No top up gas. No leak. Clean every month.

Hi, is your SANYO an Inverter aircon?

I'm deciding between Sanyo and Mitsubishi Non-Inverter System 3,

Seems like price is somewhat similar, one is made in China and another from Thailand?

Any inputs?

TYIA.

[smiling-orchid 0]

I suggest buy Extended Warranty especially if you use the air-con frequently. Nowsaday most air-con are Made In Thailand. Not that its no good but if usage is high, there are more wear and tear. It happen to my air-con and now its giving me problem but since I have extended warranty from Gain City, I am not worried about the repair cost.

Just my two cents advise.

[first 0]

Hi, is your SANYO an Inverter aircon?

I'm deciding between Sanyo and Mitsubishi Non-Inverter System 3,

Seems like price is somewhat similar, one is made in China and another from Thailand?

Any inputs?

TYIA.

[font="Arial Black"][/font]

My old SANYO is NOT an Inverter Air Con. 100% Made In Japan. I believe that is why it can last more than 13 years. In fact, it is still cold when I change it to DAIKIN. Only the compressor is a little noisy as t he bearings are giving way. Fan Coil Unit is still quiet. I use Air Con 8 hours to 10 hours everyday. Weekends >12 hours. So, I must say my Made in Japan SANYO reliability is really good. Cannot comment on new ones that is Made in Thailand. Compressors are very robust. Of course, monthly cleaning is necessary for the Fan Coil Unit.

Changed to DAIKIN (inverter type) because specs on paper are much better than SANYO (inverter). I am referring to COP at full load and half load. Check here... http://els.nea.gov.sg/mels/aircon.asp

I was told DAIKIN compressor is manufactured in JAPAN while SANYO is made in Thailand... do not know how true???

COP at half load is important measurement for inverter type as air con will run at less than full load once set temperature is reached. Depending on the requirement, compressor load will vary from zero to 100% load. Usually air con will get better efficiency when running at 50% load.

I achieved about 150 kWh of savings every month on average.

I noticed that my DAIKIN inverter type air con does not turn ON / OFF compressor like the conventional non inverter type. Noise from both Condensing Unit and Fan Coil Unit is very little. Besides varying the load capacity of the compressor, inverter air con does turn off the compressor when room temp reached set temp. However, the compressor does not just switch on / off like the non inverter type which is very noisy.

I did my research before I changed mine last year, I believed there are plenty of newer models... may be higher efficiency models available as technology advances. Do your homework and check further before committing. It's not cheap. I paid mine for close to $3k... MKS50ESG + 2 fan coil 12000 BTU each.

Do a comparison on COP between inverter and non inverter. Take note of number of hours you use a day. Check if savings on kWh is enough to justify buying an inverter one. After using mine for more than a year, I would highly recommend choosing inverter air con.

Pros of inverter air con:

1. Lower noise as compared to non inverter type.

2. Higher efficiency - this means we get higher cooling power with same energy we use.

3. Faster cooling - based on same capacity for both inverter and non inverter.

4. Temperature in room is more regulated as compared to non inverter type as compressor does not turn on / off as frequent as non inverter type.

Whatever brand you choose, do take a look at the inverter type. Other than the price difference, I think the inverter models have plenty of advantages to offer. Check if power savings could offset this price difference.

Good luck!

[dexufto 5]

Hi First,

thanks for sharing the NEA website, after examining though the database.. the figures do demostrates that Inverter would save compared to non-inverters.

>But the figures is on assumption that e.g a system 3 is running all 3 fan coils. Am I correct?

>However, I still couldn't really comprehen how the NEA obtain the figures;

>How did they obtain the part Load/ Full Load COP anyway?

>Is the figure of COP the higher the better?

I also noted the vast figures between the half load and full load.

However how do you tell if compressor runs at 50% or 100%? As you mentioned, load will vary from zero to 100% load. Usually air con will get better efficiency when running at 50% load.? My interpretation is that the A/C will probably initialise at 100% and slowly attentuate to 50% load when it reaches steady-state of desired temperature; as such the Cost figures of half load nor full load be an accurate guide since the system flucatuate between the two?

>Any comments on this?

My situation is that I would be purchasing a Sys3 for my 2 bedroom+ 1 Hall. Of which, I would say that only one of the bedroom will be running the Aircon, on average 8 hours per day.

I use to assume that Half load equates to A/C running 1 out of the 3 systems.. which is probably not true..

Thus far, after visiting 3 major Aircon retailers, most have recommended the purchase of non-inverter;

on basicis that the savings is minimum and not able to breakeven the inital purchase price of the inverter Aircon.

That is my understanding so far, any forumers/ Aircon gurus would like to comment about this?

(I've email and called NEA for their tabulations but thus far they have yet responded.)

Edited August 11, 2010 by dexufto

[dexufto 5]

A reply from NEA

Just to explain the difference between a non-inverter and an inverter air

conditioner unit – a normal non-inverter compressor unit will operate with

an on-off sequence during the operation of the air conditioner i.e. it will

run at constant full speed when cooling the room, and then stops for a

period of time when the room is sufficiently cooled to the desired

temperature. As for an inverter unit, the compressor may operate at varying

speeds i.e. at full speed during the start-up phase and then slows down to

operate at Half Load (which may not necessarily be at 50% of the full load)

when the room is sufficiently cooled. Such actions explain the terms “Full

Load” and “Part Load”. A normal thumb-of-rule is that the combined energy

consumption will be equivalent to (0.4*Full Load + 0.6*Half Load).

The database found in http://els.nea.gov.sg/mels/aircon.asp includes the

estimated annual electricity consumption (AEC) figures for all air

conditioners. The mandatory energy label help provide an basis comparison

of the energy efficiency of the air conditioner units. A 4-tick air

conditioner tends to be more energy efficient as compared to a 3-tick model

with a similar cooling capacity. Kindly note that the exact electricity

consumption will depend on a combination of many factors, such as the usage

of the air-conditioner unit, the temperature of the room, the physical

condition of the air conditioner unit etc.

The energy consumption figure is measured in accordance to prescribed test

standards. Using this measured result multiplied by 365 days would give you

Annual Energy Consumption of the model. Depending on the current electrical

tariff, you can calculate the annual estimated energy cost of operating the

air conditioner.

With regards to the link provided in your email, while it is true that an

inverter model will consume less energy when operating at half-load, it

will be difficult to determine the period at which a compressor is

operating at full-load or half-load as this would depend heavily on the

individual model type and its operational mode.

If you require any further clarification, please contact us at

NEA_energylabel@nea.gov.sg or 6731-9952.

Regards

[mkl22 0]

[font="Arial Black"][/font]

My old SANYO is NOT an Inverter Air Con. 100% Made In Japan. I believe that is why it can last more than 13 years. In fact, it is still cold when I change it to DAIKIN. Only the compressor is a little noisy as t he bearings are giving way. Fan Coil Unit is still quiet. I use Air Con 8 hours to 10 hours everyday. Weekends >12 hours. So, I must say my Made in Japan SANYO reliability is really good. Cannot comment on new ones that is Made in Thailand. Compressors are very robust. Of course, monthly cleaning is necessary for the Fan Coil Unit.

Changed to DAIKIN (inverter type) because specs on paper are much better than SANYO (inverter). I am referring to COP at full load and half load. Check here... http://els.nea.gov.sg/mels/aircon.asp

I was told DAIKIN compressor is manufactured in JAPAN while SANYO is made in Thailand... do not know how true???

COP at half load is important measurement for inverter type as air con will run at less than full load once set temperature is reached. Depending on the requirement, compressor load will vary from zero to 100% load. Usually air con will get better efficiency when running at 50% load.

I achieved about 150 kWh of savings every month on average.

I noticed that my DAIKIN inverter type air con does not turn ON / OFF compressor like the conventional non inverter type. Noise from both Condensing Unit and Fan Coil Unit is very little. Besides varying the load capacity of the compressor, inverter air con does turn off the compressor when room temp reached set temp. However, the compressor does not just switch on / off like the non inverter type which is very noisy.

I did my research before I changed mine last year, I believed there are plenty of newer models... may be higher efficiency models available as technology advances. Do your homework and check further before committing. It's not cheap. I paid mine for close to $3k... MKS50ESG + 2 fan coil 12000 BTU each.

Do a comparison on COP between inverter and non inverter. Take note of number of hours you use a day. Check if savings on kWh is enough to justify buying an inverter one. After using mine for more than a year, I would highly recommend choosing inverter air con.

Pros of inverter air con:

1. Lower noise as compared to non inverter type.

2. Higher efficiency - this means we get higher cooling power with same energy we use.

3. Faster cooling - based on same capacity for both inverter and non inverter.

4. Temperature in room is more regulated as compared to non inverter type as compressor does not turn on / off as frequent as non inverter type.

Whatever brand you choose, do take a look at the inverter type. Other than the price difference, I think the inverter models have plenty of advantages to offer. Check if power savings could offset this price difference.

Good luck!

do note that the new fancoils are smaller and do get clogged in the fins and fan blades more easily that the old sanyo ones. My sanyo lasted 17years. Changed because wanted to save the power bills. Maintenance is much more for the Daikin fancoils, you need to remove the plastic housing and clean the fins more regularly to achieve the coldness

[daikin 0]

Hi First,

thanks for sharing the NEA website, after examining though the database.. the figures do demostrates that Inverter would save compared to non-inverters.

>But the figures is on assumption that e.g a system 3 is running all 3 fan coils. Am I correct?

Not necessary. It depends on how much the compressor is loaded. you can be running 1 fan coil loading 100% or running 3 fan coils loading say 20%.

>However, I still couldn't really comprehen how the NEA obtain the figures;

Well, NEA compute using 40% full load and 60% half load even though inverter aircon could run at any load between 0% to 100%. It is impossible for anyone to compute on all combinations.

>How did they obtain the part Load/ Full Load COP anyway?

I believe you will have to ask NEA. From an engineering stand point, inverter voltage input could be adjusted to test at respective loading.

>Is the figure of COP the higher the better?

Yes. Higher number means more efficient. It is the ratio of Heat Energy removed to Electrical Energy needed to remove the Heat. In short, it is how much electrical power required to remove how much heat. The less electric power the better. Or with the same electric power, more heat remove would be better. This shows how efficient the aircon is.

I also noted the vast figures between the half load and full load.

However how do you tell if compressor runs at 50% or 100%?

Can't tell unless we measure the voltage applied to the compressor by the electronic circuit.

As you mentioned, load will vary from zero to 100% load. Usually air con will get better efficiency when running at 50% load.?

Yes. You are right. It is usually NOT efficient to run at the peak. That is why Inverter Aircon are always more efficient.

My interpretation is that the A/C will probably initialise at 100% and slowly attentuate to 50% load when it reaches steady-state of desired temperature; as such the Cost figures of half load nor full load be an accurate guide since the system flucatuate between the two?

>Any comments on this?

Half correct. For example, the DAIKIN Inverter aircon (3MKS50ESG 17060BTU + 2 units FTSS35DVM 11942BTU fan coil ) that I installed. When I turn on only 1 fan coil, the maximum to the fan coil is 15570 BTU which is well above the rated 11942BTU of the fan coil. However, if you compare the 15570BTU to the 17060BTU of the compressor, the compressor is only running 91% load. If fan coil runs at rated 11942BTU, compressor is only running at 11942/17060 = 70%. After cooling down the room to the set temperature, the fan coil will signal the compressor to reduce the load further just to maintain the set room temperature. That is why Inverter Aircons cools faster - becos it can go above rated and also more efficient bcos it does not push the compressor to run at 100% load.

My situation is that I would be purchasing a Sys3 for my 2 bedroom+ 1 Hall. Of which, I would say that only one of the bedroom will be running the Aircon, on average 8 hours per day.

You can try using Thermal Dynamics calculation. i.e. you can check how quick your current aircon cools room. Think of it as how you use an equipment (aircon) to take away heat that is trapped in your room. No matter which aircon you use, you still need to remove the same amount of heat. Thus, you will want to choose the equipment that require least amount of electrical energy to take away the heat energy in your room. Base on the new aircon specs calculate you new power. NEA figures will not be accurate. in short go for the best COP. You won't be wrong. I have done my sums before I bought my new aircon and my calculations are relatively accurate.

I use to assume that Half load equates to A/C running 1 out of the 3 systems.. which is probably not true..

You are right - this is NOT true.

Thus far, after visiting 3 major Aircon retailers, most have recommended the purchase of non-inverter;

on basicis that the savings is minimum and not able to breakeven the inital purchase price of the inverter Aircon.

Well. They are not wrong. However, you might wish to include all the other features of Inverter Aircon like cools faster, quieter, maintains temperature better, supporting a greener environment, . All these features are not available in non inverter type. It depends on what you need. Also, for inverter aircon, the more you use the more you save. My case is similar to yours. I use only one fan coil daily. the other one is weekends only. 8 to 10 hours per day, 365 days per year. I save around 150 to 200 kWh per month. Room teperature set to 25 degrees C. And my Daikin aircon maintains at 25 degrees quite accurately. I must declare that I am NOT a DAIKIN salesman nor affiliated to them. Just a happy customer. The only thing that I am NOT happy with DAIKIN is their price. I still decide on a DAIKIN because of the quality and also the high COP as compared to other brands of inverter aircon. Good luck!

That is my understanding so far, any forumers/ Aircon gurus would like to comment about this?

(I've email and called NEA for their tabulations but thus far they have yet responded.)

Hi my replies above...

Edited August 13, 2010 by daikin

[first 0]

I also did my homework before switching to INVERTER, 4 TICKS, DAIKIN.

To cool a room from a higher to lower temperature, we are essentially removing the HEAT ENERGY that is stored in that room. How? By using an machine we call an AIRCON. For the AIRCON machine to do that work, it needs energy - ELECTRICAL ENERGY.

Thus, COP which means Coefficient Of Performance, is a comparison of how effective a piece of machine (aircon) removes HEAT ENERGY with a given amount of ELECTRICAL ENERGY. That is. It is just a RATIO of HEAT ENERGY REMOVAL / ELECTRICAL ENERGY REQUIRED TO DO THAT. Thus, no unit as both numerator and denominator are J and cancelled off.

So, for a given room, whatever aircon brand and whatever aircon model we use. To bring that given room temperature down from say 32 degrees C to 25 degrees C, we are actually removing that amount of HEAT ENERGY from the room. Think of HEAT as something physical but invisible. Imagine that our aircon could remove something that is invisible from our room and throw it outside the room. That something invisible is HEAT.

So, if we understand that something invisible that has to be removed, we will be able to picture it that no matter what we use, we will need to use same amount of energy to remove the heat. Thus, if we could find a more efficient system ( i.e. machine with HIGHER COP ), this means that particular machine needed less ELECTRICAL ENERGY to do the same work. Thus DAIKIN is right to say that choose the highest COP and you will not be wrong.

Your salesmen are also not wrong to ask you choose NON INVERTER. You may wish to do some calculations on the savings using INVERTER vs NON INVERTER. Based on these data, you have to make a decision if it is worth installing INVERTER type. Of course, you will have to take into account the intangibles like more stable room temp, quieter, etc...

Do some math and find the break even. See if the premium you have to pay for a INVERTER system is worth, considering all intangibles you are getting.

mkl22 is right. The cooling fins in new fan coils are more compact - thus trapped dust more easily. I believe most if not all new fan coils are like that as the manufacturers wanted air flowing thru fins touching more surface area for it to be more efficient. Please check it yourself. Vacuuming will help.

Hope I did not confuse you further.

Edited August 14, 2010 by first

[dexufto 5]

Continuing with reply from NEA;

Qn:How do you obtain the figures on part "Load/ Full Load COP" anyway?

Can't seem to find any figures that attribute to the figures from the

manufactuers brouchure.

Ans : These figures are provided to NEA after the manufacturers have tested

their model/units at an accredited/in-house testing laboratory.

COP 100% is defined as the ratio of total cooling capacity to effective

power input at full load cooling capacity. Hence, the larger the COP, the

more energy efficient is the air conditioner unit. Having said this, any

purchase will have to take into consideration the cooling capacity relative

to the space to be cooled (i.e. no need to go for a high capacity unit for

a small room, when a lower capacity one will suffice).

Qn: How did you obtain the figures on "cooling capacity" I'm assuming it

the sum of fan coil 1 cooling capacity + coil 2 cooling capacity+ coil 3

cooling capacity? Still it doens't adds.

Ans : The various air conditioner manufacturers will be in a better

position to advise on how they derive their cooling capacity figures.

Qn Can I assume that even If I power up only one fan coil (for one room out

of three rooms), both inverters & non-inverters will consume the same full

energy (for the compressor-outdoor unit)? which is equivalent to the Full

load on the annual energy consumption? Just on the understanding that

inverter will attenuate to half load when it reaches steady-state?

Ans : Let’s take an example. If you are running the air con for only short

periods of time per day, both inverters and non-inverters energy

consumption should be similar, assuming that they are both similar cooling

capacity and consumes similar effective power input (since the compressor

will be at full capacity). However if you are running the air cons at

longer periods, then you will be able to see the difference in consumption

between the inverters and non-inverters. We are not in a position to advise

on the length of these operating periods as these are dependent on the

features and operating modes of individual air con models.

We hope that we have sufficiently answer your queries. Under the Mandatory

Energy Labelling Scheme (MELS), manufacturers / suppliers are required to

send in their test reports (tested in accordance to a prescribed ISO / JIS

standard) with specific information before they are issued an Energy Label

for each model of air conditioners. NEA does not do the physical testing of

the air conditioner units. This explains why manufacturers are in a better

position to explain how certain figures such as cooling capacity are

derived.